Bistor is kicking some serious ass. Love it, totally agree! Kill'em pinkies!
LOL, u really think so?
Torontotrucho made a good point "It seems that, it doesn't really matter if they are communist or not, we all have corrupted people in our goverments, they are usually backed by their armies."
In the P.I., we had a dictator (possibly more) that suppressed my peeps for years, yet we were never communist. We're still poor, underdeveloped and still horrifically under nourished yet it is still a democracy.
I guess in an ideal world my family wouldn't be hungry and my uncle could have afforded the proper health care before passing away in their democratic society.
But I hear the big businesses are doing well in the city.
Bistor, numbers are relative, and don't tell the whole enchilada. I know Costa Ricans live nicely compared to other countries, but even they don't have solutions for all their problems.
I agree with you when you say that small countries don't need an army, latin american countries have armies usually to give sh7t to their own people. Usually army men have ridiculously highsalaries, in some cases even their children and pets have salaries, and they also enjoy free gas, cars, and other goodies.
Most latinos in Canada and in the States don't come from communist countries, and yet, here we are. It seems that, it doesn't really matter if they are communist or not, we all have corrupted people in our goverments, they are usually backed by their armies.
Spain is in fact a good exemple to follow, after having Franco for so long ( HE wasn't a communist by the way) the spaniards are finding solutions to their problems.
I took a trip up north and saw many farms with houses, each is own by a family; in many latin american countries you'll see a lot of people in one place but they are workers who work for a small number of families which own most of the land.
bistor wrote: It's always amusing to read about admiration for a political system that had had its people under rations since 1962 (well before the collapse of the soviet block) and where soap and other toiletries are a luxury item. What a marvel, the cuban worker's paradise. Lets hope the dictator dies and political and economic reform are put in place in a hurry.
I believe I speak for all when I say I am always grateful for your history lessons, neruda. As I am sure a historian of your calibre knows, rations have been in place in Cuba since 1962, a time when that country's economy was being subsidized to the tune of 5 billion dollars a year by the Soviet Union. Surely, 5 billion dollars is enough for a country of 11 million people to feed itself without having to resort to rations? Unless, of course, the economy has been so fundamentally screwed up by marxist luminaries that, well, it can't! Collectivization anybody? Neruda, please tell the boys and girls of the class what happened in the Soviet Union and China when they attempted agricultural collectivization. Sadly, unlike Castro, Stalin and Mao had nobody to bail them out, resulting in millions of deaths by starvation. Cubans have merely had to put up with substandard rations. While it is considered chic among western leftists to blame the US embargo for all of Cuba's problems (they forget about the embargo when they mention the regime's successes), the truth is that Cuba is quite free to trade with every other country in the world. Just not the United States. The effects of the Helms-Burton have been zero to null, with other countries approving counter-legislation, including, our very own, Foreign extraterritorial measures act. Not aware of any foreign companies doing business in Cuba, are you? I don't blame you. Canada only does about a billion dollars in trade with the nation a year. Regarding Cuba's voluntary withdrawl from the IMF (1964) and World Bank (1960), I'm not sure what your point is. They wanted to leave and they left. At the time they were getting plenty of credit from the soviets. Today, well, not so much. I'm not aware of Cuba reapplying for membership, but perhaps a historian such as yourself is better informed. Cuba IS a member of the WTO though, and perfectly capable of conducting international transactions. As to your speculation on US diplomatic operations, they sound about as reliable as Walter Mercado's predictions. Entertaining too!
Mang.... doesn't it hurt to post this kind of stuff, all the time?
Not particularly... I take it freedom of expression is a novel idea to you?
Cuba represents latin america at the Olimpic games as well. I think everybody forgets that Cuba is a small island and doesn't have the resources of countries such as the USA or Canada, so it's unfair to compare. But what about comparing Cuba with the Dominican Republic where democracy has been in place for many years, and what about Jamaica, do they really live a lot better that cubans? don't they also try to leave those countries?
There are countries of similar size to Cuba, those who are better off are in Europe or have petroleum or good conections with former colonial masters.
How about Costa Rica? Their GDP per capita triples Cuba's and they beat Cuba in just about any human development indicator you can think of. Sadly, they have lacked a caudillo with star power such as Fidel Castro all these years. The Dominican Republic had another dictator (Trujillo) until not too long ago.
Good for Costa Rica, but even ticos wanted to come to Canada by the thousands, too bad they were not accepted as immigrants. The advantage that Costa Rica has is their lack of military expenses, and tourism from around the world. A south american friend of mine who has lived in El Salvador and Costa Rica told me that there's more money in El Salvador ( since there are 2 millions people sending $$$ continously) and people live and eat better. Sometimes numbers are relative and don't tell the whole story.
I'm not sure why any country of 5 million needs a military, frankly. In a country that size, a military is about as much of a deterrent to invasion as a boy scout troupe. Very effective at terrorizing peasants though.
No latin american country has Canada's standard of living. But these countries are proof that if the proper institutions are in place, a reasonable standard of living can be afforded to the citizens of a country. Certainly better than that any communist dictatorship can provide.
And why not, with time, a standard of living comparable to that of any first world country should be achievable. If Spain did it, I see no reason why the latin american countries can't, when they have historically always been more prosperous than Spain, and have far greater natural and human resources.
As to what your friend told you... you can check the data yourself. Costa Rica has a considerably higher GDP, GDP per capita and human development index than both Cuba and El Salvador.
what's wrong with you? just ignore the thread. Or somethin'.
Besides, if you notice, this is a thread that has gone on for just a bit longer than a week. I don't think I need to remind you of the maybe very interesting, certainly copiously posted on and, at the same time, obviously irrelevant threads that even you have joyously helped to inflate.
Now, as for what the Rex has to say... his little piece of historical derailing got its own comments on the paper.
(Letters section)
If he cares to look , Rex Murphy (Castro's Useful Idiots-Aug 5.) will find the reasons for Fidel's popularity in the history of political alternatives in the region. For decades before and after the Cuban revolution, a variety of regimes, backed by the United States and by death and torture squads as needed, defended the interests of the economic elites that enriched them. Millions were left to marginalization, poverty, illiteracy, ill health and early death and, yes, without health care or a school program in sight.
Sadly, it took a tyrant to smash through such tyranny. Mr Castro did it and became the hope of millions of the insulted and injured and of those "idiots" who had the decency to recognize and sympathize with their plight.
Is this why 1.5 million cubans are outside of the country today? Because of the fine economic and political conditions? What is the human rights situation like today? What is poverty like in one of the poorest countries in latin america? How well does Castro, a billionaire, live, as opposed to the average cuban?
Ah, but yes. There is health care. Not health care good enough to be particularly better than in several other countries in the region. But it's there, yes. And this, to some, justifies dictatorship. Because as we all know, there is no other way to implement social programs, but through dictatorship. Marvelous.
///
Rex Murphy informs us that, impressive achievements in health care and education nowithstanding, Cuba's dictatorship is an "insult to the people it rules... to their dignity... and honour".
Is it not an insult to the vast majority of Latin Americans that they are without adequate access to health care and education, getting in return only the dubious priviledge of selecting some rich white guy to be their president every few years, someone that rules not on their behalf, but on behalf of some pampered elite?
Yes, there have been some exceptions lately, starting with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, but Mr. Castro is not their enemy, he is their staunch ally.
Damn... Chavez is the alternative to Castro? Not the democracies in Chile or Costa Rica? One caudillo for another caudillo? Cool.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
What can I say. If a people, such as the cuban, are satisfied with the scraps they get from papá Fidel, then they have what they deserve: to be treated as minors, and a country crumbling to pieces. Because lets not kid ourselves: opposition to the regime in Cuba is pretty scarce. No cuban tiananmen square that I know of.
Unrepresentative democracy is no more democracy than Castro's show. You make it sound as if there were no other options than those two, but there are. And the most successful countries in the region, those with REPRESENTATIVE democracies, are precisely those that afford their citizens (all of them, not just a few) the highest standards of living in the region. That's right, higher than Cuba's.
///
Come on, "he second most malevolent system of the last century"? Cuba pales in comparison with a score of African, South American and South Asian countries. Citizens of these countries just dissapeared -Mr. Castro's victims are living in Miami, waiting to celebrate his passing.
Yes, as we all know, Castro never sent anyone to a firing squad. He's such a nice guy he sent them all to Palm Beach. Cool.
I think it's clear Murphy is referring to communism, and the millions of dead it produced (several times over the entire population of Cuba), and not particularly to this caribbean encarnation of the phenomenon.
If you had read the references to Sakharov and Solzhenitzyn (two names of dubious cuban origin) you might have realized this.
bistor wrote: It's always amusing to read about admiration for a political system that had had its people under rations since 1962 (well before the collapse of the soviet block) and where soap and other toiletries are a luxury item. What a marvel, the cuban worker's paradise. Lets hope the dictator dies and political and economic reform are put in place in a hurry.
I believe I speak for all when I say I am always grateful for your history lessons, neruda. As I am sure a historian of your calibre knows, rations have been in place in Cuba since 1962, a time when that country's economy was being subsidized to the tune of 5 billion dollars a year by the Soviet Union. Surely, 5 billion dollars is enough for a country of 11 million people to feed itself without having to resort to rations? Unless, of course, the economy has been so fundamentally screwed up by marxist luminaries that, well, it can't! Collectivization anybody? Neruda, please tell the boys and girls of the class what happened in the Soviet Union and China when they attempted agricultural collectivization. Sadly, unlike Castro, Stalin and Mao had nobody to bail them out, resulting in millions of deaths by starvation. Cubans have merely had to put up with substandard rations. While it is considered chic among western leftists to blame the US embargo for all of Cuba's problems (they forget about the embargo when they mention the regime's successes), the truth is that Cuba is quite free to trade with every other country in the world. Just not the United States. The effects of the Helms-Burton have been zero to null, with other countries approving counter-legislation, including, our very own, Foreign extraterritorial measures act. Not aware of any foreign companies doing business in Cuba, are you? I don't blame you. Canada only does about a billion dollars in trade with the nation a year. Regarding Cuba's voluntary withdrawl from the IMF (1964) and World Bank (1960), I'm not sure what your point is. They wanted to leave and they left. At the time they were getting plenty of credit from the soviets. Today, well, not so much. I'm not aware of Cuba reapplying for membership, but perhaps a historian such as yourself is better informed. Cuba IS a member of the WTO though, and perfectly capable of conducting international transactions. As to your speculation on US diplomatic operations, they sound about as reliable as Walter Mercado's predictions. Entertaining too!
Mang.... doesn't it hurt to post this kind of stuff, all the time?
what's wrong with you? just ignore the thread. Or somethin'.
Besides, if you notice, this is a thread that has gone on for just a bit longer than a week. I don't think I need to remind you of the maybe very interesting, certainly copiously posted on and, at the same time, obviously irrelevant threads that even you have joyously helped to inflate.
Now, as for what the Rex has to say... his little piece of historical derailing got its own comments on the paper.
(Letters section)
If he cares to look , Rex Murphy (Castro's Useful Idiots-Aug 5.) will find the reasons for Fidel's popularity in the history of political alternatives in the region. For decades before and after the Cuban revolution, a variety of regimes, backed by the United States and by death and torture squads as needed, defended the interests of the economic elites that enriched them. Millions were left to marginalization, poverty, illiteracy, ill health and early death and, yes, without health care or a school program in sight.
Sadly, it took a tyrant to smash through such tyranny. Mr Castro did it and became the hope of millions of the insulted and injured and of those "idiots" who had the decency to recognize and sympathize with their plight.
///
Rex Murphy informs us that, impressive achievements in health care and education nowithstanding, Cuba's dictatorship is an "insult to the people it rules... to their dignity... and honour".
Is it not an insult to the vast majority of Latin Americans that they are without adequate access to health care and education, getting in return only the dubious priviledge of selecting some rich white guy to be their president every few years, someone that rules not on their behalf, but on behalf of some pampered elite?
Yes, there have been some exceptions lately, starting with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, but Mr. Castro is not their enemy, he is their staunch ally.
///
Come on, "he second most malevolent system of the last century"? Cuba pales in comparison with a score of African, South American and South Asian countries. Citizens of these countries just dissapeared -Mr. Castro's victims are living in Miami, waiting to celebrate his passing.
Cuba represents latin america at the Olimpic games as well. I think everybody forgets that Cuba is a small island and doesn't have the resources of countries such as the USA or Canada, so it's unfair to compare. But what about comparing Cuba with the Dominican Republic where democracy has been in place for many years, and what about Jamaica, do they really live a lot better that cubans? don't they also try to leave those countries?
There are countries of similar size to Cuba, those who are better off are in Europe or have petroleum or good conections with former colonial masters.
How about Costa Rica? Their GDP per capita triples Cuba's and they beat Cuba in just about any human development indicator you can think of. Sadly, they have lacked a caudillo with star power such as Fidel Castro all these years. The Dominican Republic had another dictator (Trujillo) until not too long ago.
Good for Costa Rica, but even ticos wanted to come to Canada by the thousands, too bad they were not accepted as immigrants. The advantage that Costa Rica has is their lack of military expenses, and tourism from around the world. A south american friend of mine who has lived in El Salvador and Costa Rica told me that there's more money in El Salvador ( since there are 2 millions people sending $$$ continously) and people live and eat better. Sometimes numbers are relative and don't tell the whole story.
Cuba represents latin america at the Olimpic games as well. I think everybody forgets that Cuba is a small island and doesn't have the resources of countries such as the USA or Canada, so it's unfair to compare. But what about comparing Cuba with the Dominican Republic where democracy has been in place for many years, and what about Jamaica, do they really live a lot better that cubans? don't they also try to leave those countries?
There are countries of similar size to Cuba, those who are better off are in Europe or have petroleum or good conections with former colonial masters.
How about Costa Rica? Their GDP per capita triples Cuba's and they beat Cuba in just about any human development indicator you can think of. Sadly, they have lacked a caudillo with star power such as Fidel Castro all these years.
The Dominican Republic had another dictator (Trujillo) until not too long ago.
Rex Murphy could suck my balls. He is talking about Cuba like someone would talk about a bacteria sample.
However, ranting ignorants like him will always have an easier time blasting against Cuba than objectively discussing... say, how was it that Harper gave corporations a tax cut that dwarfs whatever it was that was taken from the GST. Or what kind of democracy do the Middle East countries -to whose oil the West has and keeps whoring itself- enjoy. Ot how come Katrina didn't cost the US president his job. Or how come this guy has been elected TWICE as the US president in the first ****ing place. Noooo, they'd rather beat the old, dead horse of attacking a dictator who has managed to make the canadian health care system a point of comparison with Cuba's. People like this Rex should watch a map closely, very closely, compare some basic economic standards, some geographical facts, read some elementary history and then, only then, dare to utter what he thinks is some unknown judgement of Cuba's political system.
Good luck with the likes of Murphy.
Are you talking about Rex Murphy, the Rohodes scholar, or some other Rex Murphy?
This journalist may be many things, but "idiot" is not one that comes to mind. He writes about plenty of topics. Cuba, though the center of the universe, is not the only one. But you can see that for yourself. Here are his commentaries at The National and The Globe and Mail.
Cuba represents latin america at the Olimpic games as well. I think everybody forgets that Cuba is a small island and doesn't have the resources of countries such as the USA or Canada, so it's unfair to compare. But what about comparing Cuba with the Dominican Republic where democracy has been in place for many years, and what about Jamaica, do they really live a lot better that cubans? don't they also try to leave those countries?
There are countries of similar size to Cuba, those who are better off are in Europe or have petroleum or good conections with former colonial masters.
Rex Murphy could suck my balls. He is talking about Cuba like someone would talk about a bacteria sample.
However, ranting ignorants like him will always have an easier time blasting against Cuba than objectively discussing... say, how was it that Harper gave corporations a tax cut that dwarfs whatever it was that was taken from the GST. Or what kind of democracy do the Middle East countries -to whose oil the West has and keeps whoring itself- enjoy. Ot how come Katrina didn't cost the US president his job. Or how come this guy has been elected TWICE as the US president in the first ****ing place. Noooo, they'd rather beat the old, dead horse of attacking a dictator who has managed to make the canadian health care system a point of comparison with Cuba's. People like this Rex should watch a map closely, very closely, compare some basic economic standards, some geographical facts, read some elementary history and then, only then, dare to utter what he thinks is some unknown judgement of Cuba's political system.
Fidel Castro's parlous condition this week brought me to an on-line review of a film biography of him. Fidel was released in 2002, and it is clear early on that the reviewer, A.O. Scott, was not too impressed by Estela Bravo's enthusiasm for her subject.
I detected a skeptical gleam, for example, in this line: "This is an exercise not in biography but in hero worship."
Nonetheless, hero worship of Fidel Castro, however perplexing, is despairingly common. Over the 47 years of Castro's dictatorship, whole contingents of Hollywood types have given themselves over to Castro idolatry which -- considering his regime is a one-party state solidly in the mould of every one-party state that has ever been -- is odd even for the moralists of Bel Air.
But then Castro -- much like his early colleague in revolution and arms, Che Guevara -- has always, bizarrely in my view, possessed an unfathomable fashionability among the sophisticated and "right-thinking" classes. No less than our own Pierre Trudeau seemed to have harboured an affection for the Communist tyrant. It is possible, in Mr. Trudeau's case, his dalliances with the dictator answered to some private amusement, that he (Mr. Trudeau) knew how much breaking bread with Fidel annoyed the mandarins of the U.S. State Department and the Nixon White House.
However, it was always a QED too far for me to understand how the mature Mr. Trudeau's visceral and intellectual commitments to civil liberties and the primacy of the individual ever comported with, in logic or morality, toasting an island despot, a leader who had embraced the demonstrably evil creed of communism.
It is, of course, their status as icons of anti-Americanism that mainly accounts for Fidel's and Che's (harsh and harsher) durability in the fashionable mind. Anti-Americanism is the plenary indulgence of all progressive thought. But let us return to the Scott review.
From it, I quote: "At one point, the American novelist Alice Walker, with sublime soft-headedness, marvels that Mr. Castro cannot dance or sing. 'It's a good thing he's got all those other good qualities,' she says."
Mr. Scott doesn't let that go entirely without remark: "This is about the harshest criticism Ms. Bravo permits, and one wonders just which good qualities Ms. Walker had in mind. The persecution of homosexuals? The silencing of political opposition? The jailing of dissidents?"
All justifiable queries, we will agree. But the line that stopped me cold was one A.O. Scott, wickedly, buried in parentheses just before these questions, and in all its glory is as follows, brackets and all: "(Later, she compares him to a redwood tree.)"
I think we have here a landmark moment in ecology as revelation. Novelists are the artists of our time so we're told. They penetrate the surface, they unravel the hidden connections, or speak the unheard messages of our age. Alice Walker is a novelist and Fidel Castro reminds her of a tree. It would be interesting to hear her on Tito. A dogwood, perhaps? So much for the art of the novel.
As I write this the redwood, er . . . the Supreme One, is recovering from an operation and his condition is a "state secret." (Maybe they're counting the rings.)
No surprise there. Dictatorships and health bulletins on the dictator are not compatible. (Let's not even explore the topic of dictatorships and death certificates.) In shrouding his decay or passing, Mr. Castro is merely maintaining one item of a decayed liturgy.
But when he shuffles off this mortal coil, we should all be prepared for a full flood of kindly reminiscence and adulatory appraisal. There will be much talk of the wonderful Cuban health-care system. And there will be much talk of the wonderful Cuban health care system.
Because embracing the second-most malevolent political system of the last century, and maintaining that embrace for close on four decades after its hideous innards were exposed for all the world to see -- after Alexander Solzhenitsyn, after Andrei Sakharov, after the labours of Robert Conquest -- must be counterbalanced by something, by anything, that may be said to tend toward the humane and benign.
The Cuban health-care system has performed that dubious service for as long as Castro has held supreme rule in Cuba. It's a toy of an excuse.
Dictatorship is as much an insult as a horror. It is a fundamental insult to the people it rules, an insult to their dignity, to their honour, and to their souls. Wrap it any way you wish -- compare him to a redwood -- Mr. Castro was a dictator.
Hospitals can be named after him from here to eternity, it will never change the fact he never trusted the people he ruled to make a single real choice over who led them.
Rex Murphy is a commentator with CBC-TV's The National and host of CBC Radio One's Cross-Country Checkup.
just like ladybug said why do u guys hate or love fidel?
what has he done to you guys?
i saw on cnn the huge street party on little havana in miami and they were as happy as i ever seen any1 before GLAD AND WISHED A LONG PAINFUL DEATH 2 THE CUBAN LEADER
DAMMM how can any1 wish death on some other person thats just what got me goosebumps and i couldnt believe it /even non cubans (other latinos and non latinos) were out partying
i went 2 cuba as a small trip in which i enjoyed everything there just felt real with no1 living fake lifes (cubans there have more culture and even with the conditions they seem to live like it was da best place in the world)
and just to let people know i did study the history of cuba and as a huge fan of hernesto "che" guevara i know most of the past history
and in my mind i feel that the U.S government are the only killers that seem to stir up trouble
and what was funny is that bush seems to be more worried about the world and less about his own country
Well, I asked a Cuban coworker of mine to give me her opinion on Castro's regime. She was born in 59 - the same year the Cuban Revolution triumphed. Extremely interesting. Now, all I can say is, there are two sides to everything.
Tu logica no da sentido. Fidel tiene bolsas de hierro, y se metio contra los cagados que estaban alli, y los saco. Ahora los cagados del pueblo que van hacer... nada, hasta que ven los Nuevos Cubanos de America, sobre el horizonte con su 8 Billiones de dolares, el CIA y los yahtes que vienen a rescatarlos!
Hasta eso, nadie se va levantar, y no es por que esten deacuerdo, es porque les falta coraje!
El verdadero sentimiento de los cubanos (en cuba) se sabra cuando Fidel desaparesca del mando. Si esto incentiva una emigracion masiva hacia miami o se empiezan a ver manifestaciones por su libertad desde cuba, se sabra que los cubanos no estaban agusto con su REGIMEN, si por otro lado los cubanos no emigran y no protestan se sabra que es verdad que ellos estaban agusto con el REGIMEN.
Well that may be hard to know because the Cuban goverment is not letting any reporter into the country, not even from Venezuela.
I'm being fully serious when I ask this....only because I understand things in simpler terms.
Can someone in simple jot notes explain to me:
1. WHY DO PEOPLE LOVE FIDEL? ...WHAT HAS HE DONE TO EARN THIS ADMIRATION?
2. WHY DO PEOPLE HATE FIDEL?
You don't have to go into political details and dates....just some of the main reasons that stand out.....
I mean...I like him cuz he's cute....but that's just me....LOL
In all seriousness, both of my dad's uncles stayed at his place by invitation and "hung out" with him many times about 20 years ago....and they absolutely admire his way of thinking and "commanding"......then again, these are people who also hate the US with a passion.....
So I get mixed reactions.....and I'm NOT into history or politics....and I don't have an opinion of my own formulated...because I could frankly care less about the situation to really look into it in detail.....BUT I do wanna be somewhat informed regardless.....please and thank you!
__________________
"To be a good Promoter you must have the heart of a Gambler and the mind of a Computer"
bistor wrote: It's always amusing to read about admiration for a political system that had had its people under rations since 1962 (well before the collapse of the soviet block) and where soap and other toiletries are a luxury item.
What a marvel, the cuban worker's paradise.
Lets hope the dictator dies and political and economic reform are put in place in a hurry.
It seems some people need a history lesson...
Cuba has been under an economic embargo for a number of years (way before the collasp of the Soviet Union). Furthermore, int'l trade is facilitaed through international agencies such as the IMF and the World Bank. You can't trade very well if you haven't got the credit. The economic embargo hinders such credit (see Allende). Moreover the Helms Burton Act is one of those rare "extra territorial" laws that prevent third party trade with cuba (imagine the US making law for other countries to obey! The nerve).
Regarding the US: In some US decision making circles there are actually people who are hoping Castro lives.Why? To answer that we have to look at recent geopoiltics. Hugo Chavez has become more of thorn in the side of the US than Castro. If Fidel is his mentor and he dies, Hugo will take it upon himself to lead the new revolution. He certainly will not look at Raul with the same respect. In fact Raul may be forced to align himself further with Hugo (something that the US certainly does not want). It appears the US were hoping for a transition in Cuba (toward a market economy) with Fidel still in power . This could isolate Chavez.
In fact there has been a lot of scuttlebug about the increasing presence of US diplomats in Havana.
I believe I speak for all when I say I am always grateful for your history lessons, neruda.
As I am sure a historian of your calibre knows, rations have been in place in Cuba since 1962, a time when that country's economy was being subsidized to the tune of 5 billion dollars a year by the Soviet Union.
Surely, 5 billion dollars is enough for a country of 11 million people to feed itself without having to resort to rations? Unless, of course, the economy has been so fundamentally screwed up by marxist luminaries that, well, it can't!
Collectivization anybody?
Neruda, please tell the boys and girls of the class what happened in the Soviet Union and China when they attempted agricultural collectivization. Sadly, unlike Castro, Stalin and Mao had nobody to bail them out, resulting in millions of deaths by starvation. Cubans have merely had to put up with substandard rations.
While it is considered chic among western leftists to blame the US embargo for all of Cuba's problems (they forget about the embargo when they mention the regime's successes), the truth is that Cuba is quite free to trade with every other country in the world. Just not the United States.
The effects of the Helms-Burton have been zero to null, with other countries approving counter-legislation, including, our very own, Foreign extraterritorial measures act. Not aware of any foreign companies doing business in Cuba, are you? I don't blame you. Canada only does about a billion dollars in trade with the nation a year.
Regarding Cuba's voluntary withdrawl from the IMF (1964) and World Bank (1960), I'm not sure what your point is. They wanted to leave and they left. At the time they were getting plenty of credit from the soviets. Today, well, not so much. I'm not aware of Cuba reapplying for membership, but perhaps a historian such as yourself is better informed. Cuba IS a member of the WTO though, and perfectly capable of conducting international transactions.
As to your speculation on US diplomatic operations, they sound about as reliable as Walter Mercado's predictions. Entertaining too!
There's much more to consider when discussing Cuba ...
1) the Cuban lobby group in Florida is powerful! Disproprtionately so. Why? Because florida was the swing vote that got George Bush re-elected. IN addition they are also huge supporters of JEb Bush (george's brother) who had a crucial role in getting George back into office.
Jeb bush is known to be in the pocket of several influential cuban exile families mainly the Bacardis (yes of the rum fame) www.rushlimbaughonline.com/articles/rumgate.htm www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15186-2002Sep13?language=printer
2)The Cuban Medical system has been lauded as one of the best in the world!
bistor wrote: It's always amusing to read about admiration for a political system that had had its people under rations since 1962 (well before the collapse of the soviet block) and where soap and other toiletries are a luxury item.
What a marvel, the cuban worker's paradise.
Lets hope the dictator dies and political and economic reform are put in place in a hurry.
It seems some people need a history lesson...
Cuba has been under an economic embargo for a number of years (way before the collasp of the Soviet Union). Furthermore, int'l trade is facilitaed through international agencies such as the IMF and the World Bank. You can't trade very well if you haven't got the credit. The economic embargo hinders such credit (see Allende). Moreover the Helms Burton Act is one of those rare "extra territorial" laws that prevent third party trade with cuba (imagine the US making law for other countries to obey! The nerve).
Regarding the US: In some US decision making circles there are actually people who are hoping Castro lives.Why? To answer that we have to look at recent geopoiltics. Hugo Chavez has become more of thorn in the side of the US than Castro. If Fidel is his mentor and he dies, Hugo will take it upon himself to lead the new revolution. He certainly will not look at Raul with the same respect. In fact Raul may be forced to align himself further with Hugo (something that the US certainly does not want). It appears the US were hoping for a transition in Cuba (toward a market economy) with Fidel still in power . This could isolate Chavez.
In fact there has been a lot of scuttlebug about the increasing presence of US diplomats in Havana.
Tu logica no da sentido. Fidel tiene bolsas de hierro, y se metio contra los cagados que estaban alli, y los saco. Ahora los cagados del pueblo que van hacer... nada, hasta que ven los Nuevos Cubanos de America, sobre el horizonte con su 8 Billiones de dolares, el CIA y los yahtes que vienen a rescatarlos!
Hasta eso, nadie se va levantar, y no es por que esten deacuerdo, es porque les falta coraje!
El verdadero sentimiento de los cubanos (en cuba) se sabra cuando Fidel desaparesca del mando. Si esto incentiva una emigracion masiva hacia miami o se empiezan a ver manifestaciones por su libertad desde cuba, se sabra que los cubanos no estaban agusto con su REGIMEN, si por otro lado los cubanos no emigran y no protestan se sabra que es verdad que ellos estaban agusto con el REGIMEN.
The funny thing is that he's probably not, and he's hanging out in some bush with some crazy drag, waiting for the first cuban - american to poke his head over the horizon, so he can ping him in the head with his obsolete Russian rifle. Screaming viva la revolucion
Fidel will just be a beautiful historical joke, gone forever with the likes of North Korea... dinosaurios of the end of the cold war, from a far-away time when old russian regimes would give money & time to any big-time world punks willing to expound that commie shi*, in order to grap power and bang a few heads, while Russia and USA went at it for world control.
Well we all know how that ended.
Yep, now we got all those wannabe commie LIBERAL losers in Toronto, thinking they are the lastest and greatest incarnation of CHE. LOL.
"I should have listened to Buffy but whatever." (by MiMi)
Ah! such a beautiful quote... I should make it my signature. In fact, I will.
@ Bozzo: No running water? Boo-friggin'-hoo! Don't be surprised if eventually we have to limit or control the distribution of water, electricity, etcetera, etcetera in Canada and all "developed" countries. The style of living that we have in Canada will not be sustainable for long. The planet just doesn't have the capacity. Those types of shortages are not inherent of communist countries. And BTW, Cuba would be a lot better off if there was no blockade, but unfortunately there is and there has been for over 45 years, so they make do with whatever they can. And the live.
But let me backtrack a little bit. Every single socioeconomic model has its pros and cons. Capitalism can be good for some and not so good for others. So can communism and any other political ideology. I'm not a communist, socialist, or whatever. Some of the ideas are very appealing to me, but only because I make my own judgements and apply my own experience and have formed my own ideas based on what I've gone through, where I've lived, what I've seen and based also on my own personality traits. I know I couldn't be a communist 'cause I'm selfish and ambitious. I won't preach or try to spoon-feed my ideas to others (or force them onto them) because you only change when you want to, and ideally, you listen, observe, analyze, weigh all the options that you're given, and make your own judgement on whatever beliefs and ideals you want to follow.
If you don't like Fidel and his authoritarian ways, that's fine. It's your right and your prerrogative. I think he's a charismatic leader and nothing anybody says will change my mind. I just hope Cuba comes out unscathed from his loss, and that all the achievements they have made, as a country, in so many areas don't go to waste.
Mi opinion es que CUba sera un mejor pais si Fidel desaparece. yo creo que la gente de cuba se merece la oportunidad de triunfar en un mundo COMPETITIVO. El sistema cubano sonde donde todos son iguales, es un poco aburrido, el humano es por lo general un animal competitivo y creativo.
Me parecen graciosos los comentarios que apoyan el sistema CUBANO porque siempre viene de personas que viven en paises DESARROLLADOS. y es gracias a que el pais que viven que es desarrolado y competitivo que tiene la oportunidad de visistar y turistiar cualquier pais del mundo, si ellos que apoyan el sistema cubano vivieran bajo el sistema de cuba simplemente no podrian viajar. El dia que alguien que le gusta el sistema de CASTRO deje su gran vida en CANADA y viva la vida del cubano, no del turista, sino del cubano por el resto de su vida, quizas ahi tome un poco en serio esos comentarios de que el sistema cubano es el mejor.
Sobre paises latinos que usan el dolar americano recordemos que en europa todos los paises dejaron SU EGO PATRIOTICO y todos adoptaron una moneda comun para poder competir en el mundo. El problema de latinoamerica es que muchos de nuestros lideres gobiernan con el corazon y no con la cabaza.
Mark, when a poster presents arguments of the quality that because the Soviet Union collapsed during its transition to a market economy (unlike the Czech Republic, Slovenia or China), all communist countries must collapse with a regime change, I simply don't answer.
I didn't say it MUST collapse with a regime change, but it could and if it does then it is frightening and wonderful what the future holds. However, you still didn't understand my point, you prefer to argue what isn't there. But that's ok, you keep going
We're all entitled to our opinions and I expressed mine. And why do you think I didn't answer before?
Marky Mark wrote: @Bistor, unlike you I haven't lived in Cuba let alone a third world or communist country to be able to have a decent debate. Or have u lived there? Hell my worst days growing up was not getting a Christmas gift I wanted. That doesn't make me a bad person but it does show how everything is relevant.
And unless I'm reading the wrong thread, my one liners are reserved for the pointless threads of the day.
My responses to this thread may have been one sentence long maybe even two but I mean what I say. No need beating a dead horse. And I am not supporting Castro or think its right for people to live in degrading circumstances but really, is there an actual need to argue that point too?
Obviously people risk life and limb to leave Cuba for a reason and those reasons are obvious.
But if you live your entire life with one point of view or one way of thinking with the strictest mind controls enforced, is life outside that world any better? How would you know?
Yes the world could be better, rich nations have enough food and money to take care of the poor nations, cures for diseases do exist and can be distributed worldwide, and communism does work... but the reality is it can't happen in our lifetime or possibly for the rest of human existance. And again, why argue that? Can YOU change it by arguing on a toronto foro? If you can, then I will continue. Otherwise proof is in the pudding, right????
Since you obviously missed my point with the Soviet Union, I will add to it. When communism ended and they were showing reports on the news, the sick and elderly who have lived most if not all of their lives under communist rule had absolutely nowhere to go in terms of food or income because there were food lines and rations... primitive as they were, they were fed every day... then nada. No food, no money, no jobs, NOTHING.
I fear for the people of Cuba. Yes they are intelligent, decent people who have suffered a lot of hardships (and are suffering still) but if and when this government ends its reign, there will be even more hardships that won't be resolved quickly.
Mark, when a poster presents arguments of the quality that because the Soviet Union collapsed during its transition to a market economy (unlike the Czech Republic, Slovenia or China), all communist countries must collapse with a regime change, I simply don't answer.
I suggest you do the same to those you feel aren't worth your time
wow.. you really are close minded.... all i want to do is have people realize that it's not as bad as you make it out to be. It could be worse. I can't continue my bebate as i am on my way home.. but thanks for the discussion. For a change i had some sort of mental stimulation .. enjoy the rest of your day:)
@Soslayo: Were those pictures taken in North Carolina? Norway? Perhaps New Zeland? Why are you justifying one lousy system, with other examples of lousy systems? Any pictures of the famines in that other paradise of the proletariat, North Korea?
Is there ANY communist state that affords its citizens a standard of living comparable to (I'll make it easy for you), Portugal, say. Name me one.
@Bistor, unlike you I haven't lived in Cuba let alone a third world or communist country to be able to have a decent debate. Or have u lived there? Hell my worst days growing up was not getting a Christmas gift I wanted. That doesn't make me a bad person but it does show how everything is relevant.
And unless I'm reading the wrong thread, my one liners are reserved for the pointless threads of the day.
My responses to this thread may have been one sentence long maybe even two but I mean what I say. No need beating a dead horse. And I am not supporting Castro or think its right for people to live in degrading circumstances but really, is there an actual need to argue that point too?
Obviously people risk life and limb to leave Cuba for a reason and those reasons are obvious.
But if you live your entire life with one point of view or one way of thinking with the strictest mind controls enforced, is life outside that world any better? How would you know?
Yes the world could be better, rich nations have enough food and money to take care of the poor nations, cures for diseases do exist and can be distributed worldwide, and communism does work... but the reality is it can't happen in our lifetime or possibly for the rest of human existance. And again, why argue that? Can YOU change it by arguing on a toronto foro? If you can, then I will continue. Otherwise proof is in the pudding, right????
Since you obviously missed my point with the Soviet Union, I will add to it. When communism ended and they were showing reports on the news, the sick and elderly who have lived most if not all of their lives under communist rule had absolutely nowhere to go in terms of food or income because there were food lines and rations... primitive as they were, they were fed every day... then nada. No food, no money, no jobs, NOTHING.
I fear for the people of Cuba. Yes they are intelligent, decent people who have suffered a lot of hardships (and are suffering still) but if and when this government ends its reign, there will be even more hardships that won't be resolved quickly.
Pictures you want... pictures you get... this is real poverty... No one in Cuba is in any where close to being like this. While i didn't take these pictures you can bet your butt it's reality and not a figment of your imagination. Don't be so close minded to think Castro is so bad. Open your eyes to the fight of other nations and be grateful for what you have.. Please see the last picture... While in Cuba after your meal was picked up and thown in the garbage did you think who was going to pick through that same garbage for their dinner?? i guess not.. it's a fact that it's not that bad in cuba... luxury is not everything .. Can i assume that you lived in Cuba?
And to top it all off... this is what Cuba could be like.. you assume cuba is so bad... have you see this picture??????? I wish this on no one.... so i would say CUBANS are lucky were they are .. they could be worse..
Those pics don't look much different than any middle-lower class neihborhood in latin america.... actually, very nice arquitecture (but that has nothing to do with the regime, obviously)
BOZZO, Curious question: have you live in Canada all your life?
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The opinions expressed by this poster should always be considered offensive to Guadalupipi.
@MM: If you have anything to say, beyond one-liners, by all means, contribute to the debate.
@Soloyo: I don't think it matters where you're from, and fortunately, in this country, everyone is entitled to their opinion, regardless if they're playing devil's advocate or not. Your views might be challenged though.
I went to cuba couple months ago and I went to 3 specific places....La habana, Cayo Largo and cien fuegos.iIn the haba I had the chance to Sleep for couple nights in a friends house right in front of the "Hotel Nacional", next morning...No water !!! not even to take a shower or brush your teeth !!!! This person walked us to the "Real cuba"... and my Fiance started to cry ...I have around 500 photos that show how cubans live.....that show "los logros de la Revolucion"
You see all Over the haban the Ad's of the Revolucio, El Che, Anti Bush....yada yada yada...can you say Brain Wash !
don't shoot the messenger, i am only giving a different point of view. Like i said earlier on, i don't totally agree with the way the country is run, i am only being the devil's advocate . adding fuel to the fire!! you just met me and you are already sending me away.. wow .. imagine if you really figure out what i am all about.. me manda al infierno...
Soloyo, thats great. You prefer to be killed by your crumbling house than to have a house in a dumpster. Really. Glue sniffing to kill hunger? How about turning your children into prostitutes to "resolver" a few extra dollars a day?
Are there no countries in the world that offer the majority of their citizens proper housing? No countries that produce enough food for them? Communist Cuba is the point of reference? This is the society to emulate?
Give me a break.
Of course it sucks that in a world where millions of tonnes of food go to waste each year, millions of people go to bed hungry.
Does one have to resort to a totalitarian police state to solve this problem? My guess is no, and there are plenty of countries in the world with well-fed and well-housed citizens to prove it.
Cuba is not one of them!
But by all means, if you feel otherwise, you are free to join the hundreds of thousands of migrants that try to reach the golden shores of Cuba, each year.
What's that? They go to the United States and not Cuba?
The USA promised soviet a better life if they chose democracy. Better life for them means seing old people and children begging for coins on the streets, women prostituting themselves in order to send money to their relatives ( not that it didn't happen before but now there are so many more). Teens are commiting suicide because they don't see a good future, and mafia bosses living a great life. Putin has put some order into the situation. Now the Soviet Union is gone, there are instead so many countries that don't get along and have become poorer than before. Yugoslavia, a former good country to live is now back into the dark ages.
I hope Cuba follows the path of China who has blended communism with industrial capitalism.
I hope Cuba doesn't become another democritic goverment latin american style where every one votes but after voting the rich continiu becoming richer and the poor even poorer.
A japanese Unicef worker says that Latin America is very rich endeed, but the gap between rich and poor is becoming wider and wider, that makes sence since the richer will keep things as they are for their own good.