Middle East Crisis: Can something be done?

Daeveed · Foro Master

RE: Middle East Crisis: Can something be done?

bistor · Guru

This paper seems to dispute Daeveed's hypothesis.

Invention Of Agriculture May Have Been A Step Backward

Regardless of the cause of overpopulation (and I doubt it was caused by agriculture), I hope nobody is proposing we live as our ancestors did in the neolithic age

Daeveed · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

And that cannot be achieved if they are still being brainwashed to believe that their reward is waiting for them in the heavens above. That is why I said religion is an "evil". Anyway, that's gonna be a toughy. I honestly don't see the masses getting smarter, if anything, it appears we're going in reverse. I wonder if having access to too much information is such a great thing after all: el que mucho abarca, poco aprieta.

I agree with all you've said.

......therefore, I am.

Lahtina · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

But unfortunately, we have to figure out a way to make the masses smarter and much more critical first.

And that cannot be achieved if they are still being brainwashed to believe that their reward is waiting for them in the heavens above. That is why I said religion is an "evil".

Anyway, that's gonna be a toughy. I honestly don't see the masses getting smarter, if anything, it appears we're going in reverse. I wonder if having access to too much information is such a great thing after all: el que mucho abarca, poco aprieta.

McOSIRIS · Comandante

Daeveed wrote:

we have to figure out a way to make the masses smarter and much more critical first.

Hash????

Daeveed · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

Daeveed, you are so full of it! I love how your BS sounds so convincing though. Damn you! But no, I don't agree with you. Agriculture is the egg (because I believe the chicken came before the egg). I think it's man's zeal for power, in any case, the root of ALL evils. Ok, so I take it back, the Catholic church is but a branch of the evil or perhaps the trunk. Besides, can we talk about overpopulation way back then? I don't think so. I think nature itself pretty much took care of controlling the population then. Without the help of advanced agricultural knowledge and technology, too little people would have also jeopardized the future of the tribe. After all, people not only consume wealth but create it as well. Why else do we prefer to live close to lots of people; why do we move to bigger cities? Besides all the problems we create when being crammed in one little space, I think that we can create more opportunities for ourselves too, don't you think? I do believe, though, that this overpopulation issue must be addressed but I must insist again that it does not justify the killing of the innocent. The already living innocent, that is, not the unborn innocent.

I didn't say that the world overpopulated then. I said that agriculture was the tool that enabled mankind to proliferate without becoming extinct (for now). Back then Agriculture was now viewed as a problem, au contraire, it was seen as the discovery that would empower humanity beyond belief....and it did, that's why it took over hunting and gathering; but it produced many consequences, like overpopulation, and land disputes.

Like you said, too little people would have jeopardized society. That's what I meant by living in perfect balance with the ecosystem. Population control refers not only to reducing it, but to maintaining it.

I agree with you in that we can synergize and create excellent things with people. But unfortunately, we have to figure out a way to make the masses smarter and much more critical first.

Jaime Cruz · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

Marky Mark wrote: How do you smoke so much and retain all this knowledge? I roll up with Encyclopedia pages.

Guadalupana · Foro Master

Lahtina, as much as your point is valid, and as much as Daeveed's explanation may be full of BS, there is nothing that we, the common people can do but stand back and watch as the rest destroy themselves. I'm sure if we (the good people) had the power to just snap our fingers together and take the innocent out, we'd do it.

Desafortunadamente, eso de 'survival of the fittest' carries up all the way to the human race.

Lahtina · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

Yes indeed. In a hunter/gatherer society, there are a set of "musts" that should happen in order for the society to survive as such. First, men needed to fully know the environment in which they were, in order to plan ahead for food in case of incoming bad weather, or sequias, etc. that knowledge was only obtained throughout many generations of men living in the same area. Their survival depended on them not moving. Second, in a hunter/gatherer society, men need to live in perfect balance with their surrounding ecosystem. Too much animal killing one season would mean no animals the following year. The main consequence of this balance was a controlled population. If there were too many men, the food would have ran out quickly, and the society would have been extinct. Enter agriculture now. With the discovery of agriculture and animal domestication, many of the uncertainties that accompained human survival were dissipated. Men did no longer need centuries of knowledge about a piece of land in order to survive. Now, more land meant more crops, which in turn could feed any amount of people in the society, personal wealth was born. Population control was no longer essential for survival. I believe agriculture is the root cause for overpopulation and many land conlicts over the centuries.

Daeveed, you are so full of it! I love how your BS sounds so convincing though. Damn you!

But no, I don't agree with you. Agriculture is the egg (because I believe the chicken came before the egg). I think it's man's zeal for power, in any case, the root of ALL evils. Ok, so I take it back, the Catholic church is but a branch of the evil or perhaps the trunk.

Besides, can we talk about overpopulation way back then? I don't think so. I think nature itself pretty much took care of controlling the population then. Without the help of advanced agricultural knowledge and technology, too little people would have also jeopardized the future of the tribe. After all, people not only consume wealth but create it as well. Why else do we prefer to live close to lots of people; why do we move to bigger cities? Besides all the problems we create when being crammed in one little space, I think that we can create more opportunities for ourselves too, don't you think?

I do believe, though, that this overpopulation issue must be addressed but I must insist again that it does not justify the killing of the innocent. The already living innocent, that is, not the unborn innocent.

Guadalupana · Foro Master

Daeveed, you make me proud. If you were a teacher, i'd make my kids learn from you.

Dogo · Comandante

*Rolling with encyclopedia pages*

McOSIRIS · Comandante

Daeveed wrote:

I roll up with Encyclopedia pages.

Daeveed · Foro Master

Marky Mark wrote:

How do you smoke so much and retain all this knowledge?

I roll up with Encyclopedia pages.

Marky Mark · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

.

How do you smoke so much and retain all this knowledge?

Daeveed · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

@ Daeveed... so, you're saying that the root of the problem dates back from when man made the transition from hunter/gatherer? De cuando los perros de amarraban con chorizos?

Yes indeed.

In a hunter/gatherer society, there are a set of "musts" that should happen in order for the society to survive as such. First, men needed to fully know the environment in which they were, in order to plan ahead for food in case of incoming bad weather, or sequias, etc. that knowledge was only obtained throughout many generations of men living in the same area. Their survival depended on them not moving.

Second, in a hunter/gatherer society, men need to live in perfect balance with their surrounding ecosystem. Too much animal killing one season would mean no animals the following year. The main consequence of this balance was a controlled population. If there were too many men, the food would have ran out quickly, and the society would have been extinct.

Enter agriculture now.

With the discovery of agriculture and animal domestication, many of the uncertainties that accompained human survival were dissipated. Men did no longer need centuries of knowledge about a piece of land in order to survive. Now, more land meant more crops, which in turn could feed any amount of people in the society, personal wealth was born. Population control was no longer essential for survival.

I believe agriculture is the root cause for overpopulation and many land conlicts over the centuries.

Lahtina · Foro Master

Marky Mark wrote:

Daeveed wrote: Lahtina wrote: In my opinion, religion is the root of this evil (overpopulation). I disagree. Although religion is a factor, I think the root cause for overpopulation is the invention of Agriculture, which incidentally I believe is the root cause for most of the wars too. Hmmm.. agriculture? I guess there was that apple in the 'Garden' that started it all.

Or maybe it was the hoe in the garden.

@ Daeveed... so, you're saying that the root of the problem dates back from when man made the transition from hunter/gatherer? De cuando los perros de amarraban con chorizos?

Marky Mark · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

Lahtina wrote:
In my opinion, religion is the root of this evil (overpopulation).

I disagree.
Although religion is a factor, I think the root cause for overpopulation is the invention of Agriculture, which incidentally I believe is the root cause for most of the wars too.

Hmmm.. agriculture? I guess there was that apple in the 'Garden' that started it all.

JOKER_ESCO · Foro Master

McOSIRIS wrote:

JOKER_ESCO wrote: War is just a business. It certainly is for the U.S.A.... they need that area to be unstable, so they can have cheap access to oil and cheap labour....how they're doing it???? by "giving Israel the right to defend herself against terrorism".... sounds like the best "business plan" to me....

Yeap it always has been 4 the U.S. no matter what part of the world, they always make it more unstable so they can profit from it, just like they have done in Latin America.

Daeveed · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

In my opinion, religion is the root of this evil (overpopulation).

I disagree.

Although religion is a factor, I think the root cause for overpopulation is the invention of Agriculture, which incidentally I believe is the root cause for most of the wars too.

McOSIRIS · Comandante

JOKER_ESCO wrote:

War is just a business.

It certainly is for the U.S.A.... they need that area to be unstable, so they can have cheap access to oil and cheap labour....how they're doing it????

by "giving Israel the right to defend herself against terrorism"....

sounds like the best "business plan" to me....

Lahtina · Foro Master

Julie wrote:

E.T.A Manipulation of mind, that's mostly about that but anyway we don't seem ready either to fight it look at waht is happening Remind me to post a dialogue from the book I am reading "Shantaram". I was thinking about doing it few days ago and then I forgot but it fit perfectly in here. You should read it, it's amazing, lessons of lifes and this viaje interior por lo cual te lleva. You're going to love it, well I think.-- Edited by Julie at 11:42, 2006-07-19

Cool. Take me to your leader.

I just finished reading my current book this morning. It's amazing how much you can read on the bus.

Afrodita · Guru

"The ironic thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this ****, and it's over." George W. Bush

Look who is talking about stop doing shiat.

-- Edited by Afrodita at 11:50, 2006-07-19

JOKER_ESCO · Foro Master

War is just a business.

Julie · Comandante

Lahtina wrote:

Yes, I think about this all the time too. I have thought that war was a necessary evil. I don't know about the "necessary" anymore, if I have to give it an adjective, I'd go with "unevitable" (and it has everyhing to do with Julie's last post). Still, the fact that we are overpopulated does not justify the killing of innocent people. In my opinion, religion is the root of this evil (overpopulation). What we need is education. To condemn birth control in an age of overpopulation and proliferating unwanted pregnancies is ridiculous. To reprobate the use of contraceptives in an age of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases is absurd.

I agree with you here but as you know, as we all know, a way or another, the pple that rules this place will do everything to keep the pple to a certain level where they can still pretty much do what ever pleases them.

E.T.A Manipulation of mind, that's mostly about that but anyway we don't seem ready either to fight it look at waht is happening

Remind me to post a dialogue from the book I am reading "Shantaram". I was thinking about doing it few days ago and then I forgot but it fit perfectly in here. You should read it, it's amazing, lessons of lifes and this viaje interior por lo cual te lleva. You're going to love it, well I think.

-- Edited by Julie at 11:42, 2006-07-19

Lahtina · Foro Master

Daeveed wrote:

bah...we're overpopulated anyway.... If they're going to fight for a reason like religion...then maybe they deserve it.

Yes, I think about this all the time too. I have thought that war was a necessary evil. I don't know about the "necessary" anymore, if I have to give it an adjective, I'd go with "unevitable" (and it has everyhing to do with Julie's last post).

Still, the fact that we are overpopulated does not justify the killing of innocent people.

In my opinion, religion is the root of this evil (overpopulation). What we need is education. To condemn birth control in an age of overpopulation and proliferating unwanted pregnancies is ridiculous. To reprobate the use of contraceptives in an age of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases is absurd.

ETA: And yes, by religion I meant Catholicism. From what I've been reading, most religions condone birth control.

-- Edited by Lahtina at 11:44, 2006-07-19

Julie · Comandante

McOSIRIS wrote:

Julie wrote: So you think that because it is the 21st century, human being did improved and got better, well sorry to tell you that in this aspect, no and it is sad. isn't that the whole point of evolution????

I know ! We certainly did in some areas but is seems that in terms of behavior/respect/etc.... we still have a longgggggggggggggggggg way to go

@ Daeveed, yes we are

McOSIRIS · Comandante

Julie wrote:

So you think that because it is the 21st century, human being did improved and got better, well sorry to tell you that in this aspect, no and it is sad.

isn't that the whole point of evolution????

Daeveed · Foro Master

bah...we're overpopulated anyway....

If they're going to fight for a reason like religion...then maybe they deserve it.

Marky Mark · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

"The life of one Jewish soldier is worth more than all of the world's Arab Muslim lives."? That quote, btw, is from the Jewish Task Force website, their motto: Fighting to save America and Israel from Islamic terrorism! UGH!

Islamic terrorism, has been around since the birth of Israel. It's not going away in our lifetime. Once a strong believer of the Christian faith, I am strongly questioning all religions these days.

There is no justification for the genocide of innocent people.

'Chosen people' or not, it's wrong.

Julie · Comandante

McOSIRIS wrote:

I totally join your sadness.... I feel so helpless just watching these atrocities and the thought of people loosing their lives, just because they believe in the same god but with different names, or just because they speak different languages makes me vomit… I understand this conflict has been going on for many years, but that is not an excuse to allow this to happen… this is the 21st century people!!!!! We should be using dialogue and diplomacy instead of gunpowder and knives….

So you think that because it is the 21st century, human being did improved and got better, well sorry to tell you that in this aspect, no and it is sad.

Julie · Comandante

Sorry, I can't really say anything about it. I haven't been watching nor reading the news lately.

"The life of one Jewish soldier is worth more than all of the world's Arab Muslim lives."? THAT IS WRONG.

But unfortunatly and I am not talking about this conflict/war in particular but in general. You need to be at least 2 parties to make a war and yes, civils are always caught in the middle because they are, finally the hostages that can make things change.

I really hope it will end soon but with the new power in place in Israel, I doubt it, he is more pro-violence than pro peace

McOSIRIS · Comandante

I totally join your sadness....

I feel so helpless just watching these atrocities and the thought of people loosing their lives, just because they believe in the same god but with different names, or just because they speak different languages makes me vomit…

I understand this conflict has been going on for many years, but that is not an excuse to allow this to happen… this is the 21st century people!!!!! We should be using dialogue and diplomacy instead of gunpowder and knives….

Jaime Cruz · Foro Master

Very deep thread and it's a shame that we are looking from the outside in and know that things will get worse before they get better.
Killing and bombing innocent people over two soldiers who have only been captured and not killed is an outrage

Lahtina · Foro Master

I'm sad today, people. When I've read about the atrocities of past wars and revolutions, I sometimes wondered how I would have felt if I were living at the time and if, as an outsider, I could have done something to help.

I'm sad because each of us is merely an observer as the current phase of the Middle Eastern civilization crumbles. It all started in the epoch of the Crusades (or perhaps earlier?) and is not likely to end anytime soon.

How can Israel justify the bombing of city and market districts because two soliders were abducted knowing that they will kill hundreds of civilians in the process? I guess "The life of one Jewish soldier is worth more than all of the world's Arab Muslim lives."? That quote, btw, is from the Jewish Task Force website, their motto: Fighting to save America and Israel from Islamic terrorism! UGH!

Until this morning, civilian casualties were but a number to me; it's hard to empathize with numbers. I'm sad today because the news reported a 13 year old girl's message: "Tell the world to stop this. It's not our fault."

-- Edited by Lahtina at 11:23, 2006-07-19