TV Buff wrote:

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 No, LadyBug, from generation to generation things WILL NOT get better. History tends to repeat itself and you know why that is? Because the patterns and the basic prejudices and the roots of everything that caused these situations to happen in the first place have remained unchanged. Events come and go, but the people don't change. Unless you actually go back and see and realize what it was that went wrong and try to change it, things will just keep repeating themselves. As terrible as the world wars were, the lines of thoughts that caused it are still there and you never know, it might happen again. It's just human nature. But as responsible citizens, and especially through education, people can learn to change. It's very difficult, though. Very, very difficult.

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Exactly, you can't go against human nature, the survival of the fittest will always prevail. Look at communism, for example, in theory it was all dandy but in practice?

Dogo wrote:

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Argentinos, DUDE!!! Blame the Argentinos!!!

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We'll blame the Argentinian Churches!

@ BUFFY

Difficult definately....but NOT Impossible....

Lahtina wrote:

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Easier said than done. It's kinda hard to break the mold of thought and the existing system of things when you have to worry about satisfying your basic needs first.

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That's a really good point and I agree with you.....

BUT instead of "talking" about it....why don't people try to do something about it.....

I believe that one person can make a difference....

My people lost an entire EMPIRE....and yes it has affected the nation....etc...etc....BUT each individual makes their own life con el rumbo de la vida....and you just have to take the best and filter out the worst.....BUT never forget the history and if anything try to do something positive about it......

Things happen for a reason and what's done is done.....UNFORTUNATELY until someone takes a stand nothing will get done......and the mentality will remain the same.

LaDyBuG wrote:

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miguel wrote: and we wonder why people like hugo chavez or evo morales end up getting elected... i mentioned my spanish background because bistor thought i might have been whining about spain. spain is not going to bail us out of our problems though... only we will can end up changing things. (similarly to what cosby says about black people, that it's time for them to act and not blame the white man). In other words.....what's done is done! The past does affect the future but it's up to the individual to superarse and handle things differently for a positive change in generations to come....

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Easier said than done. It's kinda hard to break the mold of thought and the existing system of things when you have to worry about satisfying your basic needs first.

TV Buff wrote:

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LaDyBuG wrote: miguel wrote: and we wonder why people like hugo chavez or evo morales end up getting elected... i mentioned my spanish background because bistor thought i might have been whining about spain. spain is not going to bail us out of our problems though... only we will can end up changing things. (similarly to what cosby says about black people, that it's time for them to act and not blame the white man). In other words.....what's done is done! The past does affect the future but it's up to the individual to superarse and handle things differently for a positive change in generations to come.... I so do not agree with this. It's easy to say what's done it's done. It would be so easy to say that of the holocaust, of the World Wars, of Rwanda and of so many other instances. No. People, both on the winning and losing sides, need to revisit these instances and learn from them. I'm not saying start blaming people, but let's learn from what happened, embrace it, fix our mistakes, grow as people and then, and only then, people can move on. We can't just forget about it, pretend it never happened and that it didn't influence things (because these things do) and move forward. We need to face facts. You can't evolve as an individual and as a society unless you see, study, analyze and embrace your past. @ Miguel: nobody's saying that Spain should bail us out of anything. But that doesn't not take away the fact that they have a lot, A LOT, to do with the way Latin America is today. If we're talking about taking responsibility, I think Spain should be doing a lot of that too.

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THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN.....FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION THINGS WILL GET BETTER....DEPENDING ON HOW IT'S PASSED DOWN....

WHAT'S DONE IS DONE AND THERE IS NO GOING BACK.....IT DOESN'T MEAN FORGET ABOUT IT....

HISTORY CANNOT BE FORGOTTEN OR RE-WRITTEN.....

MANY COUNTRIES HAVE A HISTORY, WHETHER BAD OR GOOD WITH POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE RESULTS....BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS BECOME...A PIECE OF THAT COUNTRY'S HISTORY.....SO TRY TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF IT.....NO HAY DE OTRA!

 

LaDyBuG wrote:

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miguel wrote: and we wonder why people like hugo chavez or evo morales end up getting elected... i mentioned my spanish background because bistor thought i might have been whining about spain. spain is not going to bail us out of our problems though... only we will can end up changing things. (similarly to what cosby says about black people, that it's time for them to act and not blame the white man). In other words.....what's done is done! The past does affect the future but it's up to the individual to superarse and handle things differently for a positive change in generations to come....

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I so do not agree with this. It's easy to say what's done it's done. It would be so easy to say that of the holocaust, of the World Wars, of Rwanda and of so many other instances. No. People, both on the winning and losing sides, need to revisit these instances and learn from them. I'm not saying start blaming people, but let's learn from what happened, embrace it, fix our mistakes, grow as people and then, and only then, people can move on. We can't just forget about it, pretend it never happened and that it didn't influence things (because these things do) and move forward. We need to face facts. You can't evolve as an individual and as a society unless you see, study, analyze and embrace your past.

@ Miguel: nobody's saying that Spain should bail us out of anything. But that doesn't not take away the fact that they have a lot, A LOT, to do with the way Latin America is today. If we're talking about taking responsibility, I think Spain should be doing a lot of that too.

TV Buff wrote:

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bistor wrote:

Those countries have been independent for some two centuries. It is high time they take responsability for their current situation. If there is racism in latin america it is because latin americans are OK with it TODAY, not because of colonial rule that happened two centuries ago. Two centuries ago in most of Europe, the nobility held all the positions of power. To be a commoner, or, hell, a SLAVE, implied you had no rights at all. Today, this is not the case. I say quit whining and take ownership of your problems. Don't pass the buck on to your dead ancestors. didn't meant to come across as a whiner.. technically my family is on the colonizer side anyway... what i meant to say was that we are still feeling the impacts of colonial rule today (it is undeniable). We are all products of history. To point to a particular event in the past, implies that the origin of the problem lies there. As if the native peoples that were in american before the europeans arrived did not practice slavery, human sacrifice, discriminate on the basis of sex, or wage war on their neighbours.


@ Miguel: So your family is on the colonizer side anyway... Gee, where have I heard that before? Aren't you lucky to have been on the winning side?
If the colonization of Latin America is the not the biggest event to happen in this continent and thus the cause and root of anything and everything that has gone on there for the past two centuries, then I don't know what is. Some events in history change it forever, and I don't know, but I'd  dare say this is one of them, duh! If the Spanish colonization isn't influencing every single aspect of life in Latin America, then call me crazy, but I'd say it is. It's not taking responsibility that's the problem. It's the fact that whatever happened some centuries ago is ingrained in our collective memory. What we've been taught for centuries (that people or darker colour, native people, are second-class citizens, if people at all) is still very much influencing people's thinking today. It is a fact that people of certain colour are discriminated against. It is a fact that indigenous people are discriminated against. If speaking up for their rights is whining, then I'd say whine all you want, because these people haven't had a voice for centuries. It's not that Latin Americans are OKAY with racism. It's where the power lies today that doesn't allow them to not be OKAY with it. And it has every bit to do with the colonization that happened however many centuries ago. We can't help to be the product of it, us being what and who we are today, but the repercussions of what happened then are still being felt today and will be felt for many, many years to come.-- Edited by TV Buff at 08:18, 2006-06-23

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and we wonder why people like hugo chavez or evo morales end up getting elected...

i mentioned my spanish background because bistor thought i might have been whining about spain. spain is not going to bail us out of our problems though... only we will can end up changing things. (similarly to what cosby says about black people, that it's time for them to act and not blame the white man).

McOSIRIS wrote:

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Shei wrote: pobre.. quisiera pensar en que lo dijo en un momento de bronca.. . Mis compañeros centro americanos hacen su trabajo tan bien como nosotros aqui.. de todos modos "gente que se cree superior" hay en todas partes.. y nosotros somos mejores que ellos....

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  jaja, nah, que malo!! es verdad lo que dije  

 

@Ponches...  Gracias!   celeste y blanco... lindos colores!

bistor wrote:

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We are all products of history. To point to a particular event in the past, implies that the origin of the problem lies there.

As if the native peoples that were in american before the europeans arrived did not practice slavery, human sacrifice, discriminate on the basis of sex, or wage war on their neighbours.

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hey, you're right. i was strictly commenting on danny 416's comments

"lol^^^ no seriously.....whats with latinos comparing eachother...especially when they dog out whose more native looking then the other...."

we are still feeling the effects of our colonial past. it explains certain attitudes and i'm not saying it's right... just commenting on racial issues in latin america in general.

bill cosby speaks out on this subject a lot and what he says is certainly worth looking at..



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http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200407/SPE20040702a.html

Bill Cosby pleaded with blacks to stop blaming the "white man" for their problems on Thursday, and he reiterated his harsh critique of the current state of African-American culture.

"It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us, and it keeps a person frozen in their seat. It keeps you frozen in your hole that you are sitting in to point up and say, 'That's the reason why I am here.' We need to stop this," Cosby said in an address before Jesse Jackson's 33rd Annual Rainbow/PUSH Coalition conference in Chicago.

The 66-year-old Cosby struck an introspective tone. "There is a time, ladies and gentlemen, when we have to turn the mirror around," he told the crowd of 500 people at the Sheraton hotel.

Cosby bristled at any notion that he should tone down his views so they will not be taken out of context and exploited.

"I couldn't care less about what white people think about me at this time," he said to loud applause.

"Let them talk! What are they saying that is different from what their grandfather said? What are they doing or trying to do to us that their grandfathers didn't try to do to us? But what is different is what we are doing to ourselves," Cosby said.

The entertainer has been at the center of a racially charged controversy since May when he ridiculed the poor grammar of some blacks. "I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said in Washington, D.C. on May 17, at an event marking the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation ruling.

On Thursday, Cosby urged blacks to take personal responsibility for their lives, and he hinted that social welfare programs may be having unintended consequences for African-Americans.

"The housing project was set up for you to move in, move up, and move out," he said.

Being poor had a different meaning to older generations, according to Cosby.

"If you go up to people -- when you ask them and you say, 'Were you poor?' they would say, 'No, no, our parents were broke, but we were not poor.' There was a spirit in that house," he explained.

His message to black people who say he's exposing the "dirty laundry" of the black community was blunt.

"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It's cursing and calling each other '****' as they're walking up and down the street. They think they hip -- can't read, can't write -- 50 percent of them," he said.

'An accepted word'

Cosby stressed the importance of education and proper parenting.

"The more you invest in that child, the more you are not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word '****.' This is an accepted word. You are so hip with '****,' but you can't even spell it," an impassioned Cosby lamented

Whatever happened to 'Black is beautiful?' Well, it was replaced with '**** please,'" he said to laughter.

Cosby's message on Thursday was part common sense and part shock value.

"Education, ladies and gentleman, respect the elderly, respect for yourselves, respect for others," Cosby said.


-- Edited by miguel at 18:32, 2006-06-22

Shei wrote:

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pobre.. quisiera pensar en que lo dijo en un momento de bronca.. . Mis compañeros centro americanos hacen su trabajo tan bien como nosotros aqui.. de todos modos "gente que se cree superior" hay en todas partes..

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y nosotros somos mejores que ellos....

Danny416 wrote:

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So whats this whole beef??????..the other day at work one salvadorian and another argentino co worker were going at it..the salvadorian was like "ohhh u guys aint real latinos you south americans always look down on us...thinking ur superior..and then the argentino said something like" well we are more civilizied then you central americans".... So I just stood there and just watched how both of them kept going at it... last time i checked we all spoke the same language..and we were colonized by the spaniards....not brazil belize ..but yall get the idea right... kinda wack for a bunch of us..to set down and compare whose better....          

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        pobre.. quisiera pensar en que lo dijo en un momento de bronca.. . Mis compañeros centro americanos hacen su trabajo tan bien como nosotros aqui..

de todos modos "gente que se cree superior" hay en todas partes..

bistor wrote:

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miguel wrote:

Marky Mark wrote:

miguel wrote:
it's the consequence of colonial rule


Could you 'esplain' a little? or should i continue trying to figure it out?


the white man came, and instilled the notion all over latin america that the white man is better... that notion hasn't died in most latin american countries since colonial rule...

generally, all over latin america, "white" minorities run the countries.



-- Edited by miguel at 16:25, 2006-06-22


Those countries have been independent for some two centuries.

It is high time they take responsability for their current situation. If there is racism in latin america it is because latin americans are OK with it TODAY, not because of colonial rule that happened two centuries ago.

Two centuries ago in most of Europe, the nobility held all the positions of power. To be a commoner, or, hell, a SLAVE, implied you had no rights at all. Today, this is not the case.

I say quit whining and take ownership of your problems. Don't pass the buck on to your dead ancestors.

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didn't meant to come across as a whiner.. technically my family is on the colonizer side anyway... what i meant to say was that we are still feeling the impacts of colonial rule today (it is undeniable).

this doesn't mean that the spaniards are responsible today for the racism problems in latin america.. i agree with you, people need to own up for their own problems and deal with them..

unfortunately, as we all know, old habits die hard and discrimination is still pervasive.

Danny416 wrote:

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So whats this whole beef??????..the other day at work one salvadorian and another argentino co worker were going at it..the salvadorian was like "ohhh u guys aint real latinos you south americans always look down on us...thinking ur superior..and then the argentino said something like" well we are more civilizied then you central americans"....
So I just stood there and just watched how both of them kept going at it...
last time i checked we all spoke the same language..and we were colonized by the spaniards....not brazil belize ..but yall get the idea right...
kinda wack for a bunch of us..to set down and compare whose better....
 
 
 
 
 

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The irony of this is, of course, technically speaking, no american country is latin, "latin" coming from 'latium', the region around Rome.

It appears the romans missed the last bus to Guatemala, and were hence unable to colonize it.

To say the darker you are, the more "latin" you are is, to say the least, quite retarded.

miguel wrote:

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Marky Mark wrote:

miguel wrote:
it's the consequence of colonial rule


Could you 'esplain' a little? or should i continue trying to figure it out?


the white man came, and instilled the notion all over latin america that the white man is better... that notion hasn't died in most latin american countries since colonial rule...

generally, all over latin america, "white" minorities run the countries.



-- Edited by miguel at 16:25, 2006-06-22

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Those countries have been independent for some two centuries.

It is high time they take responsability for their current situation. If there is racism in latin america it is because latin americans are OK with it TODAY, not because of colonial rule that happened two centuries ago.

Two centuries ago in most of Europe, the nobility held all the positions of power. To be a commoner, or, hell, a SLAVE, implied you had no rights at all. Today, this is not the case.

I say quit whining and take ownership of your problems. Don't pass the buck on to your dead ancestors.

miguel wrote:

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the white man came, and instilled the notion all over latin america that the white man is better... that notion hasn't died in most latin american countries since colonial rule...

generally, all over latin america, "white" minorities run the countries.

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I remember seeing something on TV about how Indian women (from India) bleach their skin to look like they come from money and they look down on the darker people as they're considered lower class.

Even with my culture, we look down on darker skin flips... cause they're from 'the mountains' (ie, less educated, less sophisticated).

I guess it's not just Latin America.

Marky Mark wrote:

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miguel wrote:
it's the consequence of colonial rule


Could you 'esplain' a little? or should i continue trying to figure it out?

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the white man came, and instilled the notion all over latin america that the white man is better... that notion hasn't died in most latin american countries since colonial rule...

generally, all over latin america, "white" minorities run the countries.





-- Edited by miguel at 16:25, 2006-06-22

the fact that latinos dog eachother about who is browner than who isn't about specific countries.. it's the consequence of colonial rule and has been going on for hundreds of years.

it's hard to reverse hundreds of years of cultural bias.

Be vewy, vewy quiet... I think Danny is finally having a word with his conscience.