Nope. I meant that you can’t possibly understand what “value” there may be to religious beliefs and practices and, more specifically, Christian church religious practices, if you are not willing to treat the religions and churches, as historical events they are, with the same pinch of salt that most of us seem to help ourselves with when dealing with other issues … like, the way (our) taxes help, or not, in (indeed) the blowing away of an Afghani village.
I lost track of this post and now there are too many things that i wish to say. I will say this, my belief in Jesus is totally removed from my non belief in the church. My whole point was that the church seems to look a lot like the temples did in Jesus' time. And he rebelled against the institution.
Ok, let us look at taxes. A "Daeveed fan" could post Taxes is just economics with poor management. Being a libertarian I consider taxes (any tax) to be an unecessary, and outdated institution. Maybe it was needed in the middle ages, or even before, when the masterminds started the whole thing. But I think if you are a citizen, you shouldn't need to approach society (and much less, pay money to it), in order to be "considered" part of the society
Taxes are need to pay for the services we can not do ourselves (e.g put out a fire in a burning building, brain surgery, educ. and training, etc). But I'll assume your statement is sarcastic. However, your analogy does not hold for religion (and spiritually). Those who have a mature understanding of religion (not blind faith) do not expect God to anything for us we can't do ourselves. I don't believe he is "Santa Clause" figure who tallies up how many times we pray and dispenses favours accordingly.
. .......... What difference does it make? Most of us go to sleep without having done pretty much anything to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and house the homeless. Because we assume the government is taking care of that with the taxes citizens pay.
Although Canada certainly could do better in terms of philanthropy, many Canadians are proud to be here and stay because of our just society. We, by consenting to our tax rates (albeit sometimes reluctantly) can see the need for a fair (re)distribution of wealth and services. So by our very presence (along with electoral tendency towards left- of- center parties), we support programs for the poor. Moreover there are many of us who have rejected the private sector and its promise of wealth for service to our fellow citizen. Although on most days we don't clothe the naked as you say we may be caring for he sick, teaching the young, protecting the vulnerable.
Instead, Canada is going to Afghanistan and training american troops on their way to Iraq. Deveed, you may want to reconsider if you are ever going to give this government any tax money, again. Just because it may end up paying for the blowing away of a village in Afghanistan -or maybe even Iran, who knows with the conservatives at the helm?
I believe you are oversimplfying the issue to further your point. The Canadian presence in Afghanistan is much more complicated tha blowing up a few viilages. That can be done without any Canadian "boots" on the ground.
And this you can't ignore, las you seem to say that you do about the church (which I think everyone should have the right to ignore, by the way). But, what's next, then? Ambiguity is much stinkier than how it looks from the safe distance of non engagement. The sins of the church are legion. Its good deeds, maybe as many, if not more. The balance to that is the key to human ambiguity, only that the church is so much "in your face" that, you know, sometimes we can't help bashing it for being, er, outdated, or unnecesary.
One thing I can tell you: the church is more than what you seem to assume that you know about. Which I believe, when applied to any religion, is the whole point in the making of any atheist.
Huh? Do you mean that the church is so complicated that we could never ever hope to evaluate or assess it deeds or failures?
to Daveed as well:
nihilism and atheism is sooo last century. You should read some newer stuff.
Ok, let us look at taxes. A "Daeveed fan" could post Taxes is just economics with poor management. Being a libertarian I consider taxes (any tax) to be an unecessary, and outdated institution. Maybe it was needed in the middle ages, or even before, when the masterminds started the whole thing. But I think if you are a citizen, you shouldn't need to approach society (and much less, pay money to it), in order to be "considered" part of the society. .......... What difference does it make? Most of us go to sleep without having done pretty much anything to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and house the homeless. Because we assume the government is taking care of that with the taxes citizens pay. Instead, Canada is going to Afghanistan and training american troops on their way to Iraq. Deveed, you may want to reconsider if you are ever going to give this government any tax money, again. Just because it may end up paying for the blowing away of a village in Afghanistan -or maybe even Iran, who knows with the conservatives at the helm? And this you can't ignore, las you seem to say that you do about the church (which I think everyone should have the right to ignore, by the way). But, what's next, then? Ambiguity is much stinkier than how it looks from the safe distance of non engagement. The sins of the church are legion. Its good deeds, maybe as many, if not more. The balance to that is the key to human ambiguity, only that the church is so much "in your face" that, you know, sometimes we can't help bashing it for being, er, outdated, or unnecesary. One thing I can tell you: the church is more than what you seem to assume that you know about. Which I believe, when applied to any religion, is the whole point in the making of any atheist.
WOW!
That is some deep SHIT man!!!
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CHI CHI CHI LE LE LE VIVA CHILE!!!!
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Church is just religion with poor management. Being an Atheist I consider the church (any church) to be an unecessary, and outdated institution. Maybe it was needed in the middle ages, or even before, when the masterminds started the whole thing. But I think if you are a believer, you shouldn't need to approach an organization (and much less, pay money to it), in order to be "considered" part of the church. Actually i don't really care. Jeebus is my co-pilot.
You my friend are going to rot in hell! THE DEVIL IS GOING TO TAKE YOU AWAY!!! YOU are doomed!!!!! You will burn forever!!!!!!
OR
you will be burried and get eaten by bugs and not feel a thing cuz you are ....well...dead
__________________
CHI CHI CHI LE LE LE VIVA CHILE!!!!
Proud memeber and supporter of Delta Gamma B i t c h - orama Copyright 2008 All Rights Reserved
Being a libertarian I consider taxes (any tax) to be an unecessary, and outdated institution. Maybe it was needed in the middle ages, or even before, when the masterminds started the whole thing. But I think if you are a citizen, you shouldn't need to approach society (and much less, pay money to it), in order to be "considered" part of the society.
..........
What difference does it make? Most of us go to sleep without having done pretty much anything to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and house the homeless.
Because we assume the government is taking care of that with the taxes citizens pay.
Instead, Canada is going to Afghanistan and training american troops on their way to Iraq.
Deveed, you may want to reconsider if you are ever going to give this government any tax money, again. Just because it may end up paying for the blowing away of a village in Afghanistan -or maybe even Iran, who knows with the conservatives at the helm?
And this you can't ignore, las you seem to say that you do about the church (which I think everyone should have the right to ignore, by the way). But, what's next, then?
Ambiguity is much stinkier than how it looks from the safe distance of non engagement.
The sins of the church are legion. Its good deeds, maybe as many, if not more. The balance to that is the key to human ambiguity, only that the church is so much "in your face" that, you know, sometimes we can't help bashing it for being, er, outdated, or unnecesary.
One thing I can tell you: the church is more than what you seem to assume that you know about. Which I believe, when applied to any religion, is the whole point in the making of any atheist.
Being an Atheist I consider the church (any church) to be an unecessary, and outdated institution. Maybe it was needed in the middle ages, or even before, when the masterminds started the whole thing. But I think if you are a believer, you shouldn't need to approach an organization (and much less, pay money to it), in order to be "considered" part of the church.
I think that the Catholic church is divided into several orders or ways of thinking. I've been to that guatemalan cathedral 3 times, and I've also been a Sault Ste.Marie cathedral were the candles are actually light bulbs. I didn't get the same sense of spiritualism there, it was much colder and more a turistic thing than anything else. The guatemalan church is more mistic, I believe people there actually believe in God.
The Opus Dei is part of the Catholic church which I believe has very conservative points of view ,in contrast, let's say ..to the Theory of Liberation branch in Latin America.
I even believe that north american priest don't believe in God the same way a priest from a little town in Latin America does.
The whole institution that is the church now. It disgusts me to see popes and bishops wearing bling bling cuando ay tanta gente en el mundo que necesita ayuda. Have you thought that perhaps someone, maybe a family member or a friend or a parishioner gave them the bling bling as a gift. Or perhaps they have purchased it before they became a priest. And if it is non of the above....so what,they do get a salary and do with it whatever they want. And I bet you a lot of them do give part of their money to people that need it. And when I say this is people that have actually gone to the priest and said I don't have money to eat, my children need....etc. Why are we so quick to judge them if we see they have materialistic things. If you say this because they are priests and are suppose to give to everyone who is in need then let me tell you that as a "Christian" aren't we all called to do the same....I don't see people saying let me go leave in the ghetto so I can save some money and give it need. I don't see anyone saying let me take the TTC because I will save money and give it those in need. the ones that came benefitted. So you mean the ones that go now don't??? I think it's just that the church would like to see more donations. If you want to get married in a catholic church, you are given a donation envelope, why? I understand that the church must also maitain it self but why then not look to the vatican or the pope and bishops. Im sure they don't live in little secluded sanctuary's. Well, a lot of the priest do live in a little room in the church. And yes, a lot of them don't but the majority don't live in this supper houses. The churches do ask the for help from the vatican....but do you know how many churches are there in the world. We are talking about thousands, do you think they have that kind of money to support all of them. They will even have to pay for the toilet paper. It's like when you ask a government of ONE country to pay for everything that country needs. It is impossible. That is why they ask us to pay for this and that and raise our taxes all the time. (Not that I like it) I don't see anyone asking presidents or prime minister to please go to a chelter and give your salary and every perk they get back to the country because we need it more then they do. And one last thing....Yes, there are churches that have gold and look nice etc... but realisticly those are just very few compare to the thousands that have very little.
Typical.
got something that you want off your chest?
Blame the church!
(and pay your taxes. Remember... Afghanistan needs your money. The war, I mean)
The whole institution that is the church now. It disgusts me to see popes and bishops wearing bling bling cuando ay tanta gente en el mundo que necesita ayuda.
Have you thought that perhaps someone, maybe a family member or a friend or a parishioner gave them the bling bling as a gift. Or perhaps they have purchased it before they became a priest. And if it is non of the above....so what,they do get a salary and do with it whatever they want. And I bet you a lot of them do give part of their money to people that need it. And when I say this is people that have actually gone to the priest and said I don't have money to eat, my children need....etc. Why are we so quick to judge them if we see they have materialistic things. If you say this because they are priests and are suppose to give to everyone who is in need then let me tell you that as a "Christian" aren't we all called to do the same....I don't see people saying let me go live in the ghetto so I can save some money and give it to the less fortunate. I don't see anyone saying let me take the TTC because I will save money and give it those in need.
the ones that came benefitted.
So you mean the ones that go now don't???
I think it's just that the church would like to see more donations. If you want to get married in a catholic church, you are given a donation envelope, why? I understand that the church must also maitain it self but why then not look to the vatican or the pope and bishops. Im sure they don't live in little secluded sanctuary's.
Well, a lot of the priest do live in a little room in the church. And yes, a lot of them don't but the majority don't live in this supper houses. The churches do ask the for help from the vatican....but do you know how many churches are there in the world. We are talking about thousands, do you think they have that kind of money to support all of them. They will even have to pay for the toilet paper. It's like when you ask a government of ONE country to pay for everything that country needs. It is impossible. That is why they ask us to pay for this and that and raise our taxes all the time. (Not that I like it) I don't see anyone asking presidents or prime minister to please go to a chelter and give your salary and every perk they get back to the country because we need it more then they do.
And one last thing....Yes, there are churches that have gold and look nice etc... but realisticly those are just very few compare to the thousands that have very little.
I'm far, far, faaaaaaar from being a defender of the church, but I wouldn't say the institutution is as loaded as some make it out to be. Other religious organizations such as the mormons, scientologists, or these evangelical "christian" organizations, manage much more money than them... the budget for the vatican itself is less than 50 million dollars... hardly crazy money. The church has had an undeniable impact on western civilization, good and bad, and for that, it has my total respect. A lot of wisdom has been accumulated in an organization that has survived 2000 years. Some of the churches contain art of incalculable value. I hardly consider the church, being as a major financier of art and architecture over the centuries, to have done a bad thing. Yes, there is poverty in the world, but, for example, that cathedral you saw in Guatemala brings the country plenty of money in the form of tourist dollars. Much much more than the value of the church itself. If that money is not devoted to the poor, that is not the fault of the church, but rather of national governments who choose to not take care of their citizens. I will repeat: Every country has exactly what it deserves. If you're asking me to choose between the church and these God Inc. goofs you see on TV, the catholic church, any day of the week, nine times out of ten. And, again, I am faaaaar from being religious, but, let's give credit where credit is due.
I've never heard of tourists flocking to Guatemala to spend tourist dollars looking at a cathedral. At least my travel agent isn't pushing that particular tourist attraction.
Catholic church is NOT there to help take care of the poor...is that your point? If so I agree...
__________________
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Proud memeber and supporter of Delta Gamma B i t c h - orama Copyright 2008 All Rights Reserved
Salsagal wrote: I was watching cnn presents on Fri.night. and the show was on the life of jesus. Now iv'e always beleived in Him and His message of peace to everyone on earth. During one of my visits to a cathedral in Guatemala there is this massive jesus on the crucifix. He is very dark and Mary is at his feet. Now a few years after this visit, i had a dream that I was in this church once again. There are steps behind the crucifx and people reach in and touch His Feet. So i'm doing this and Jesus turns to me and says,"what are you doing here? And i wake up. This post is about the church, do you believe that the church is delivering the true message of Jesus, Or are they like Jewish temples of Jesus' times ($)? (sorry for the long story) -- Edited by Salsagal at 00:08, 2006-04-15
bistor wrote: I'm far, far, faaaaaaar from being a defender of the church, but I wouldn't say the institutution is as loaded as some make it out to be.
Other religious organizations such as the mormons, scientologists, or these evangelical "christian" organizations, manage much more money than them... the budget for the vatican itself is less than 50 million dollars... hardly crazy money.
The church has had an undeniable impact on western civilization, good and bad, and for that, it has my total respect. A lot of wisdom has been accumulated in an organization that has survived 2000 years.
Some of the churches contain art of incalculable value. I hardly consider the church, being as a major financier of art and architecture over the centuries, to have done a bad thing.
Yes, there is poverty in the world, but, for example, that cathedral you saw in Guatemala brings the country plenty of money in the form of tourist dollars. Much much more than the value of the church itself. If that money is not devoted to the poor, that is not the fault of the church, but rather of national governments who choose to not take care of their citizens.
I will repeat: Every country has exactly what it deserves.
If you're asking me to choose between the church and these God Inc. goofs you see on TV, the catholic church, any day of the week, nine times out of ten.
And, again, I am faaaaar from being religious, but, let's give credit where credit is due.
Country's don't get what they deserve. One of the reasons why my parents cam to Canada was give their children a better way of life o no? Looking at your country where ever it may be, do you think that you would be able to have everything that you have here? NO. AS far as the money that the vatican has, I haven't done any research on this specifically, but i can only imagine how much all of the art is worth. Vatican city is one of the richest if not the richest cities in the world. Yes, our religion has brought forth a lot of wisdom. But don't you ever ask yourself what else is there? What don't they want us to know. Just read up on Constantine the emperor.
don_plyero wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ well do you know the reason for the gold on the cathedrals and churches? ITS 2 MAKE THE PLACE LOOK GOOD things have always been that way for almost 1000
Jesus was around more than 2000 years ago, and he went into the temples were the rabbies were doing the exact thing that our church is doing now. "To look good" give me a break. I don't think that's what our religion is based on. When Moses came down from the mountain and all the israelites were worshipping the golden idols, what did he do. Join in and say yeah this looks good?
I'm far, far, faaaaaaar from being a defender of the church, but I wouldn't say the institutution is as loaded as some make it out to be. Other religious organizations such as the mormons, scientologists, or these evangelical "christian" organizations, manage much more money than them... the budget for the vatican itself is less than 50 million dollars... hardly crazy money. The church has had an undeniable impact on western civilization, good and bad, and for that, it has my total respect. A lot of wisdom has been accumulated in an organization that has survived 2000 years. Some of the churches contain art of incalculable value. I hardly consider the church, being as a major financier of art and architecture over the centuries, to have done a bad thing. Yes, there is poverty in the world, but, for example, that cathedral you saw in Guatemala brings the country plenty of money in the form of tourist dollars. Much much more than the value of the church itself. If that money is not devoted to the poor, that is not the fault of the church, but rather of national governments who choose to not take care of their citizens. I will repeat: Every country has exactly what it deserves. If you're asking me to choose between the church and these God Inc. goofs you see on TV, the catholic church, any day of the week, nine times out of ten. And, again, I am faaaaar from being religious, but, let's give credit where credit is due.
I DONT AGREE...... BETWEEN THE CHURCHES AND THE GOVERMENT OF EVERY COUNTRY THE ONLY ONES THAT SUFFER ARE THE PEOPLE....
NO COUNTRY HAS WHAT IT DESERVES....EVERY COUNTRY IS ENRICHED BY ITS BEATY AND CULTURE AND BUT YET IT LACKS DO TO THE FACT THAT MOST COUNTRIES ONLY PRESENT THE TOURIST LIFE AND LEAVE THE NATURAL THINGS THAT THEY HAVE TO OFFER TO THE SIDE.
CUBA IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THIS......
__________________
I DONT CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY, IM A PROUD MEMBER OF THE S.L.U.T CAMPAIGN
I'm far, far, faaaaaaar from being a defender of the church, but I wouldn't say the institutution is as loaded as some make it out to be.
Other religious organizations such as the mormons, scientologists, or these evangelical "christian" organizations, manage much more money than them... the budget for the vatican itself is less than 50 million dollars... hardly crazy money.
The church has had an undeniable impact on western civilization, good and bad, and for that, it has my total respect. A lot of wisdom has been accumulated in an organization that has survived 2000 years.
Some of the churches contain art of incalculable value. I hardly consider the church, being as a major financier of art and architecture over the centuries, to have done a bad thing.
Yes, there is poverty in the world, but, for example, that cathedral you saw in Guatemala brings the country plenty of money in the form of tourist dollars. Much much more than the value of the church itself. If that money is not devoted to the poor, that is not the fault of the church, but rather of national governments who choose to not take care of their citizens.
I will repeat: Every country has exactly what it deserves.
If you're asking me to choose between the church and these God Inc. goofs you see on TV, the catholic church, any day of the week, nine times out of ten.
And, again, I am faaaaar from being religious, but, let's give credit where credit is due.
gold and bling bling is the bad part of the church but you need 2 relize that the pope is the guy who leads this church ....bling bling or not hes doing his job
people may say ohhh what about the poor...and i agree the roman catholic church is the richest religion in the world and i think that governments should be at fault for the poverty
(The church truly has become corrupt and has drifted from Jesus' original message of spreading the Gospel. I visited countless cathedrals and churches in Mexico and all of them disgusted me with the gold and jewels and countless riches put into the building... meanwhile where were these churches built? on native temples and prayer grounds... after or while killing off the native people.
It truly is sad when the focus is not on the message but on what these people do... ie Pope v16.0 wearing Prada and listening to an iPod.)
well do you know the reason for the gold on the cathedrals and churches? ITS 2 MAKE THE PLACE LOOK GOOD things have always been that way for almost 1000
The church truly has become corrupt and has drifted from Jesus' original message of spreading the Gospel. I visited countless cathedrals and churches in Mexico and all of them disgusted me with the gold and jewels and countless riches put into the building... meanwhile where were these churches built? on native temples and prayer grounds... after or while killing off the native people.
It truly is sad when the focus is not on the message but on what these people do... ie Pope v16.0 wearing Prada and listening to an iPod.
The whole institution that is the church now. It disgusts me to see popes and bishops wearing bling bling cuando ay tanta gente en el mundo que necesita ayuda. There mission is to spread the word of God. I find that when i have gone to church a lot of the focus is on the people who don't come to church. I don't think Jesus did this with his people. The ones that came benefitted. I think it's just that the church would like to see more donations. If you want to get married in a catholic church, you are given a donation envelope, why? I understand that the church must also maitain it self but why then not look to the vatican or the pope and bishops. Im sure they don't live in little secluded sanctuary's.
I was watching cnn presents on Fri.night. and the show was on the life of jesus. Now iv'e always beleived in Him and His message of peace to everyone on earth. During one of my visits to a cathedral in Guatemala there is this massive jesus on the crucifix. He is very dark and Mary is at his feet. Now a few years after this visit, i had a dream that I was in this church once again. There are steps behind the crucifx and people reach in and touch His Feet. So i'm doing this and Jesus turns to me and says,"what are you doing here? And i wake up. This post is about the church, do you believe that the church is delivering the true message of Jesus, Or are they like Jewish temples of Jesus' times ($)? (sorry for the long story) -- Edited by Salsagal at 00:08, 2006-04-15
I don't know what you mean by this?
You are referring to SYNAGOGUES right?
Please clarify so I can answer....
__________________
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I was watching cnn presents on Fri.night. and the show was on the life of jesus. Now iv'e always beleived in Him and His message of peace to everyone on earth. During one of my visits to a cathedral in Guatemala there is this massive jesus on the crucifix. He is very dark and Mary is at his feet. Now a few years after this visit, i had a dream that I was in this church once again. There are steps behind the crucifx and people reach in and touch His Feet. So i'm doing this and Jesus turns to me and says,"what are you doing here? And i wake up. This post is about the church, do you believe that the church is delivering the true message of Jesus, Or are they like Jewish temples of Jesus' times ($)? (sorry for the long story)
"Most of us fall short much more by omission than by commission."
