On the Evilness of the Human Spirit and other stuff

lanbiyu · Senior Member

RE: On the Evilness of the Human Spirit and other stuff

Paradox · Regular Plus

Maracuya wrote:

I agree with you LADYBUG however you say: when I experienced soooo much Hypocracy from people involved in this institute called "church"...... so why didn't you feel the need to take in the church your way if there's just as much hypocracy outside of the church? were these members in your church or in the vatican for you to see this hypocracy from the members ? The problem with some church members is that they become fanatics, and take their religion the wrong way and accuse other people as insuffcient or unworthy as they believe themselves to be. -- Edited by Maracuya at 23:33, 2005-12-19

Christian/Catholic View from my View:

We are the dogs, and he is the master.
He expects our obedience.
Natural Disasters are his shock collar.
We are a blind/deaf/dumb dog that doesn't understand his sit/stay commands.
So he shocks us.
...and we pee on the rug.
...and we chew on the furniture.
Cause we don't know our purpose...
...other to live, and do whatever seems interesting.
...and we are supposed to expect that our master knows best and has a purpose for us.
Yet he neglects us, and leaves us for hours to our own whims and fancies...
Expecting for us to understand...
...but we cannot
...for we are just dumb, deaf, blind dogs... not sure of what to do with these lives we live.

Maracuya · Guru

I agree with you LADYBUG

however you say: when I experienced soooo much Hypocracy from people involved in this institute called "church"......

so why didn't you feel the need to take in the church your way if there's just as much hypocracy outside of the church?

were these members in your church or in the vatican for you to see this hypocracy from the members ? The problem with some church members is that they become fanatics, and take their religion the wrong way and accuse other people as insuffcient or unworthy as they believe themselves to be.

-- Edited by Maracuya at 23:33, 2005-12-19

Lahtina · Foro Master

latinsoulchild wrote:

Catholicism has been in my family for many generations. Although for me, all religions end up looking to the same sky and to the same guy. Like Lahtina says about the Pope, as much as I love the fella. It's really odd that he's sporting the finest gear and sitting on gold, brass and marble thrones while others are sleeping on dirt floors eating their own nails to have a snack. I really don't know what this is about and I feel like a sinner when I put the Pope down. If God tells us to love one another like we would want to be loved, shouldn't the RCC be distributing its riches to the less fortunate? Wouldn't that show that they are following God's wishes? We could go on and on about what Religion is right and what practises are just, but that's the exact reason why many are killing eachother and despising eachother.....for their beleifs. mad luv

I had a special affection for John Paul II because I grew up with him. When I think of him I immediately think of my grandmother and I loved that woman. I admired and respected the man for all of his contributions but not because he was The Pope.

I can't say that I love and/or admire this guy. I don't know him.

I think that it's natural to "feel like a sinner" for putting the Pope down because he represents an institution that has molded you into the person you are today. It'll be part of you even if you were to change your beliefs later on.

It may seem like I'm attacking the RCC but I'm just questioning. I don't like having things imposed on me. I want to know who, what and why I'm following and then decide if it's what I want to do.

It really bugs me that others are seem so blind but that is just my Sagittarian nature... don't mind me. In fact, I just remembered... I don't care.

LaDyBuG · Comandante

Religion in the middle east is more sacred that anywhere else in the world.....they take it toooo seriously and they take it toooo far.....out of their passion and it being enforced as "the way of life"......Muslims & Christians still till this day have problems in the mid east.....extreme case problems......leading to wars, power struggles, disrespect....etc

@ Lahtina: As a human who personally experienced "wrong doing" you are entitled to the choice you made with no regrets....it's obvious your "faith" was shattered due to human logic thinking.

@ Bainaman: I like how you take the good and filter the bad out of this situation.....

Faith is the last thing any human being loses.....(just think if you're stranded in the middle of an ocean, who is the last person you wish could help you.....THINK ABOUT IT.....who do you ask for?)

@ LSC: you said "I really don't know what this is about and I feel like a sinner when I put the Pope down." - It means that your conscience is not allowing you to think bad, because you still believe no matter what.....

I personally am not religious, eventhough I was brought up in a Cartholic school/church, thinking it was the "thing to do".....until I became of age and realized, this is not for me, especially when I experienced soooo much Hypocracy from people involved in this institute called "church"......

HOWEVER....I do belive in a "higher power".....which is probably my CONSCIENCE......and that's what installs in me a bit of: Shame, Conscienceness, Logic and GOODNESS......

Just be a good human being over all......and you'll be OK

DulceGalletita · Foro Master

@MARACUYA: You have a great point ... not everything done in the church is what is intended to be done ... For example: the priests that have been found guilty in molesting children they should pay for what they do ...

Maracuya · Guru

On CBC Anne Rice was interviewed for her new book "Christ the Lord" and 3 years ago she returned to the Roman Catholic church after 35 years away from it. She said she will not return to writing books on vampires et al. From now on she'll write only about Jesus. I liked her interview A LOT! She had an interesting experience from being a catholic and becoming an atheist at 18 yrs old to returning to catholocism 3 yrs ago.

Evil has the face of a human, no need to blame the devil (poor dude!)

I have faith that it will all remain a mystery, but that the circle will return to its starting point and we will feel the beauty of having faith in God through Jesus.

All religions grow, and maybe the Roman Catholic church was/is going through growth and evolution.... especially since its mostly humans 'governing' it. (and initially men, right?)

I am learning to be a roman catholic because before I decide to become an atheist or protestant christian I want to learn about what I was born into. We are mere humans so I don't have to feel the pressure of having all the answers, but at least the small answers that allow me to care for my ''brothers'' and ''sisters'' and be a great person for myself:

besides, RELIGION may not work for everyone, only experience can help you decide, its like ADVIL, advil doesn't usually work for me, LOL

also, when the student is ready the teacher will come - I became ready to learn just this year, and I'm enjoying it.

@LAHTINA
btw Lahtina, I can see how your heart has been broken by the church state in Mexico, but I think Jesus cried when He saw that the Priest in that church deceived you all and replaced the benches instead of reaching out to the people affected by the natural disaster. and Jesus may say to that Priest:

Then he will say also to those on the left hand,'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' "Then they will also answer, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?' "Then he will answer them, saying,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Lahtina: If I could send you flowers, I'd send you these flowers of strength:

torontotrucho · Guru

There's ussually two sides of the coin. Even in catholicism there are several movements who contradict each other;e.g: The OPUS DEI. This organization is the very "rigth wind" side of catholicism, don't expect much sympathy for the poor from these guys, The Opus Dei goes against movements such as the "Theory of Liberation" ( Toeria de la Liberacion) in Latin America; which has the goal of improving the lives of millions in Latin America and through out the world. Toeria de la Liberacion has been attacked by the Vatican ( The Pope) and several evangelical protestant movements which are many times financially supported by the USA goverment and other countries goverments in order to diminish the work of Teoria de Liberacion.

It is extremely hard for a priest who has priority for the poor in Latin America, many priest and nuns have been killed and tortured. Pope John Paul II didn't help Monsenor Romero when He required help, and several years later He was shot by death squads. Pope John Paul II helped the west win against comunism in Europe ,but He lost influence when He started to realize that capitalism wasn't a better option eather.

So you see guys, evil is everywhere, and it seems to be winning when people star to loose faith in God.

Leo · Guru

Even watching South Park and nothing else will show you that religion is not so much the problem as the means that many have twisted in order to accomplish very un-religious goals. Are we going to forbid gold on account of the uncountable africans, natives from all america and australia that died to gold digging enterprises?

Latina, I would have walked away too. The parish I attended in Cuba HAD to be on the move with those who have less, and it has not changed with my new parish in Toronto. Half of what these small communities do is poor people oriented.

Sadly, what you have told us about is only a tiny fraction of the whole load of crap that organized religion in general, and christian churches in particular, expect people to simply go ahead with. There are churches preaching prosperity theology (the more you offer to God -us- the more God will bless you). There are churches meddling with families´ affairs and disabling children, teens and couples from growing as what they are and not some ficticious part of a temporal, morally strict, church. There are churches exploiting people´s fears about the end of times and the Armaghedon, and they don´t mind doing it as long as there are enough people to believe it. There are churches promising divine healing, holy -and healing- objects, miracolous images, supper-efficient prayers and beads.... you name it.

But blaming "religion" for all of these falls short from fair. Are we going to entirely disengage from politics (can anyone actually do THAT) just because what we see in the election debates, for example? Don´t we know that politics´ is a much higher call? Isn´t that why we criticize politicians, instead of simply ingoring the whole thing?

Well, come think of it, that is EXACTLY what a bunch of people do. They prettend to act as if politics did not exist. The results -eventual, total social irrelevance- are quite similar to what we get when, having previously had some kind of religious affiliation, decide to live like if none of that is out there.

You know what, it IS. And if there´s any thread of faith in your life, put it into work. That will be even better than merely attending a church in which you never felt like you could actually speak up your mind. No offense, but coming from the roman catholic church, it doesn´t surprise me. Not that my own church lacks a similarly embarrasing load of crap to confess, but I have always been given the assurance that ethical rage will be always welcome.

I personally appreciate the fact that churches exist. I also wish they would spend more time and money on those who need it the most. I also wish the government would do more for poor people, but that´s for another ballpark... I mean, thread.

latinsoulchild · TOP Guru

Catholicism has been in my family for many generations. Although for me, all religions end up looking to the same sky and to the same guy. Like Lahtina says about the Pope, as much as I love the fella. It's really odd that he's sporting the finest gear and sitting on gold, brass and marble thrones while others are sleeping on dirt floors eating their own nails to have a snack. I really don't know what this is about and I feel like a sinner when I put the Pope down. If God tells us to love one another like we would want to be loved, shouldn't the RCC be distributing its riches to the less fortunate? Wouldn't that show that they are following God's wishes?

We could go on and on about what Religion is right and what practises are just, but that's the exact reason why many are killing eachother and despising eachother.....for their beleifs.

mad luv

God · Foro Master

Bainaman wrote:

See......I figured someone would bring up the Inquisitions or the molestation of kids by Priests.....

Why can't anyone ever remember the great things Mother Teresa, Juan Pablo II, Oscar Romero did....just to name a few recognizable figures....

Let me ask you this....

What do you think about the Arabs vs Jews fight over land???

Religion, religion is the problem more people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed.

Paradox · Regular Plus

Torture truly defines the evilness that dwells in the human spirit. Torture has been used for at least 2,000 years and has been widespread. Early Greek and Roman laws specified that only slaves could be tortured, but soon freemen could be tortured in cases of treason. The right to torture slaves was abolished in Roman law in AD 240. In the Middle Ages, torture was included in proceedings of the Catholic Church, which legally employed torture to obtain confessions.

It was during the times of the Tudors that the use of torture reached its height in England. Under Henry VIII, torture was frequently used. When Edward and Mary were on the throne, torture wasn't used as much. However, when Elizabeth took the throne, torture was used more than in any other period of history. Queen Elizabeth thought that treason was one of the worst crimes that could be committed, and the majority of incidents of torture were for reasons of high treason. Lords and high officials were exempted, and woman were rarely put through torture.

The punishment for poisoning during this period was to be boiled to death. Mutilation and branding were also common. People often had their right hand cut off if they were caught stealing, and on certain occasions eyes were plucked out with hot pinchers and fingers were torn off.

Some minor cruelties included the pillory, the stocks, the finger pillory, the ducking stool, and the ranks. The dunking stool was a stool or chair in which a woman who had been accused of adultery or other crimes would be repeatedly dunked under water until pronounced dead.

The pillory was another device that was commonly used. There were a couple of different forms of the pillory. One is still known of today. The pillory was a frame in the shape of a T, usually placed in the center of the town. The accused would place his/her hands in the cross bar of the T with his/her head sticking out of a hole at the top. The accused then had to stay in the pillory for an extremely long time and would be harassed by everyone that crossed his/her path.

Another form of the pillory that isn't as widely known was for the feet. This device had holes through which the toes were forced; then the toes were crushed with a hammer and wedge. This form of pillory had much less emotional pain, but the excruciating physical pain was much more enduring.

The harsher the crime committed, the more horrendous the punishment during this time. A person accused of manslaughter, rape, or robbery, might find himself trapped in cages hung up in public places where others could observe his slow death. Right before being pronounced dead, he was taken down and quartered until the pain finally killed him.

Nowadays these torture devices seem cruel and heartless, but in the sixteenth century cruel punishment was a normal everyday thing. Under the Tudors, torture flourished throughout England. The result was a country living in fear of being the next victims.

McOSIRIS · Comandante

RE: On Roman Catholicism

Lahtina · Foro Master

McOSIRIS wrote:

I don't question the catholic religion (I'm "light" catholic) but The Inquisition is just something beyond my comprehension........... to "obligate" ppl to believe in something by using pain.... -- Edited by McOSIRIS at 23:53, 2005-12-16

That's putting it lightly.

I used to think that the Inquisition was about burning witches at the stake. People who dealt with black magic. Hell, I used to think that a heretic was precisely that a witch, a sorcerer someone evil but no.

her·e·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hr-tk)
n.

A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
Nice! No?

Anyway, I'm too tired to continue my own inquisition of Roman Catholicism, I'll save it for tomorrow or whenever.

McOSIRIS · Comandante

RE: On Evilness

Lahtina · Foro Master

I was a pretty devout catholic. There was a time when I desperately needed some spiritual counseling and I was there in church every Sunday. I really didn't get the support or the peace of mind that I was searching for in any of the sermons. Instead, I got dirty looks because I didn't put any money in the collection basket. But you know what? I was living on my own for the first time, I was in school and on a tight budget. Before I had completely abandoned the church, I had decided that whatever I was going to give to the church, I would give to a beggar on the street instead.

The last straw though was during one of the worst floodings that we've had in Mexico. It was all over the news. The people in Oaxaca, one of the poorest states in Mexico, were in crucial need for help. There were relief efforts everywhere. When I was in mass, you know what our Parish was doing? He was urging all the people there to give as much money as they could, to spend generously in a kermis that was being held at our church. You'd think that it was for relief efforts... I did. But no, it was so that they could replace all of the church's benches. It's not that the benches were worn or useless, it's just that they were mixed and matched and the Parish thought that took away the charm and the potential beauty of the little chapel. I was so pissed off. I totally wanted to say something but then they probably would have thought I was possed, no? Who knows, maybe I am. I just don't like the way it manipulates people.

When I was in Mexico this last time it broke my heart to see all the social injustice, all the poverty and misery. Dude, in some cities we couldn't walk five steps without little kids coming up to us selling us gum or asking for money; from very early in the morning to very late at night this was the deal. It didn't matter if it was Monday or Sunday. These kids were obviously not in school. Fack, un chiquito me amargó el desayuno. Me hizo llorar porque me vendía unos chicles y ya no quería comparle porque ya habíamos comprado varios la noche anterior. Le pregunté que si ya había desayunado y me dijo que no. Compartí mi desayuno con él y él a su vez lo compartió con otro niño. When I was in Oaxaca a woman on the street asked me for my bottled water. Isn't that sad?

Where is the church for all these people? And why is the f ucking Pope wearing Prada? So don't you dare say that it's just because of the Inquisition.

Edited because I really wanted to say f ucking Pope. It gives me some sort of pleasure to say F ucking Pope when I'm pissed off at his holiness preference in shoes.

-- Edited by Lahtina at 23:44, 2005-12-16

Bainaman · Foro Master

Lahtina wrote:

I think these people are commendable for their actions but I don't see why Catholicism should take all the credit.
I wouldn't dare attempt to give you an opinion over the Arabs and the Jews because I do not know enough.
And btw, am I saying that the RCC is evil? If I have I take it back. I'm just saying that my faith in it has been shattered.

I think that we can agree that the people I mentioned were extremly religious figures and were extremely faithful........Let's leave it at that...

You have not come out saying that the RCC is evil.........You're showing glaring examples of their mistakes.........

My point about the Arabs & Jews......was that they're fighting for that land.....because of their BELIEFS......(if I am wrong.....I greatly apologize to any Jew or Arab)........

I'm saying that many things were done by the Catholic Church because they believed they were doing "the right" thing........Their views were skewed..........

Will the Jews or Arabs be able to say the same thing many years from now??? That they killed all those people in vein??? Will people question and judge their actions as harshly as they do the Catholic Church???

Again....I'm just posing questions......

Lahtina · Foro Master

Bainaman wrote:

See......I figured someone would bring up the Inquisitions or the molestation of kids by Priests..... Why can't anyone ever remember the great things Mother Teresa, Juan Pablo II, Oscar Romero did....just to name a few recognizable figures.... Let me ask you this.... What do you think about the Arabs vs Jews fight over land???

I think these people are commendable for their actions but I don't see why Catholicism should take all the credit.

I wouldn't dare attempt to give you an opinion over the Arabs and the Jews because I do not know enough.

And btw, am I saying that the RCC is evil? If I have I take it back. I'm just saying that my faith in it has been shattered.

Lahtina · Foro Master

Oh man, there is soooooooo much to share on this subject, so much to talk and discuss that I don't even know where to begin. I guess I'll start with sharing the site of the exhibition.

http://www.torturamuseum.com/instruments.html

But for those that don't want to read about the collection of instruments, I'll post some here. Copying and pasting so I don't know how it will turn out.

The inquisitional chairs

This instrument of torture comes in different versions. We are first going to examine their common features and, then, their differences. All of them have common features, in that they are covered with spikes on the back, on the arm-rests, on the seat, on the leg-rests and on the foot-rests. The chair exhibited at the museum of San Gimignano has 1300 spikes, a real "carpet" of spikes . One version has a bar screwed on the lower portion of the chair, by the victim's feet, which by a screw mechanism forced the back of the legs against the spikes, thus penetrating the flesh of the victim. Another version had two bars immobilising the victim's wrists forcing his forearms against the arm-rests resulting in the flesh being penetrated by the spikes.
Another version had a bar at chest height, to immobilize the victim's bust, while the spiked seat had holes to allow the victim's bottom to be 'heated" by hot coals placed under the seat, causing painful burns, but still keeping the victim conscious.
The strength of this instrument lies mainly in the psychological terror it causes and the threat that the torture will get increasingly worse, conforming to a model where the pain starts off easy and then gets progressively worse. The idea is that the Inquisitors can interrupt it at any stage, upon visual inspection of the damages that have been inflicted.
This instrument was used in Germany up to the 1800s, in Italy and in Spain up to the end of the 1700s, in France, in Great Britain and in the other central European countries, according to certain sources, up until the end of 1800s.

The maiden of Nuremberg

The name of this instrument seems to have originated from a prototype that was built in the town of Nuremberg. It is also said that this sort of sarcophagus had the face of a maiden carved on its front door, probably with the aim of making this horrible container look more refined.
This instrument has four main features, whose wickedness, I think, deserve to be analyzed. The inside of the sarcophagus was fitted with spikes designed to pierce different parts of the body, but miss the vital organs, so that the victim was kept alive, in an upright position.
Its second feature is that the victims were kept in an extremely confined space to increase their suffering.
Its third feature was that the device could be opened and closed without letting the victim, who had been pierced from the front and the back, get away.
Its fourth feature was that the container was so thick that no shrieks and moaning could be heard from outside unless the doors were opened. When the sarcophagus doors were shut again, the spikes pierced exactly the same parts of the body as before, and thus no relief was ever possible. This instrument can be defined both a torture and a death instrument.

The Garrotte

This instrument bears a Spanish name because it was "improved" in Spain, where it became the official instrument of capital punishment. It remained in use until 1975, when the last person to be executed was a young student who was later found to be innocent. This incident was one of the arguments used for the abolition of death penalty in that country.
This instrument has very ancient origins. Simply put, a pole was driven into the ground and a rope was tied around the victim's neck. But if the pole was not very thick and the rope was tightened behind the pole, the neck of the victim could be tightened more gradually and easily released.
This sort of torture was used all over the world as testified by etchings.
The string tying the victim's neck to the pole could be made of a material that would shrink once wetted, so that the victim would slowly suffocate as it dried.
The "improved" Spanish version of this instrument was used for executions. It had a steel collar, larger in size than the victim's neck to prevent strangulation, but, at the same time, tight enough to immobilize the head and the neck.
Preventing neck and head movement was necessary because it allowed the victim's cervical vertebrae to be penetrated by a steel tip, moved by a screw mechanism positioned in the rear of the pole. In theory, such penetration was to be quick and precise, thus, able to administer a rapid and certain death.
Actually, though, the possibility of error and failure is so high that I leave it to the imagination of the reader to consider the suffering it actually inflicted.

Branks

These devices had two main features: They exposed the victims to ridicule by forcing them to wear a ridiculous likeness, and, at the same time, they inflicted mortification and physical torture by occluding the victims' mouth or nose and covering their eyes. As we can see in the picture number 3, the victim's mouth was stopped up with a ball to prevent her from screaming and moaning.
The long ears represented the ears of an ass. In Europe, many negative characteristics were attributed to this animal. Even today, donkeys are considered to be the stupid version of horses and the epithet "ass" is still used, in Italy, France and Spain, to define a stupid person.
The version with a pig nose or even a pig head, symbolizes someone dirty. The word pig, when referred to a person, is considered offensive in all European languages.

The heretics fork

This instrument consisted of two little forks one set against the other, with the four prongs rammed into the flesh, under the chin and above the chest. A small collar supported the instrument in such a manner that the victims were forced to hold their head erect, thus preventing any movement.
The forks did not penetrate any vital points, and thus suffering was prolonged and death avoided. Obviously the victims' hands were tied behind their back.

Bainaman · Foro Master

See......I figured someone would bring up the Inquisitions or the molestation of kids by Priests.....

Why can't anyone ever remember the great things Mother Teresa, Juan Pablo II, Oscar Romero did....just to name a few recognizable figures....

Let me ask you this....

What do you think about the Arabs vs Jews fight over land???

Lahtina · Foro Master

On the Evilness of the Human Spirit and other stuff