On a more serious note and one that may entwine a few threads here (the evil that men (BTW i didn't see G(g)od, only humans, in your examples), French thing (existentialism) and this one.
Right, because it was on the evilness of the human spirit.
What is the essence of the mother in this case? Is she just an alcoholic? Or is she more? Did she not work to pay for the house the kids live in? Did she not save money in a college education fund for her eldest (a discovery during the trial that shocked the eldest of the pair)? Did not a number of her (the mother) friends speak of how he used to talk lovingly and proudly of her daughters? Or that her friends thought highly of her in her own right? Clearly she was more than alcoholic.
Clearly.
However when you reduce someone to less than human, (dehumanization) this then gives you license to do things to them you would not normally consider doing to another human being such a torture, slavery, beatings, denial of rights. Hence, by reducing people to just a heretic, a Jew, a black person, a homosexual, an alcoholic , you dehumanize them. This in turn allows for unspeakable acts to now become spoken and in the worst of times doable (inquisition, holocaust, slavery, gay bashing, etc) .
I must say, your insightful comments always put things in a new perspective for me. Hmmmmmmm. I must reflect on this for some time now.
Before I go, I just make it clear to everyone that I don't presume to have any answers, all I have are questions.
And btw, neruda, dehumanization... isn't that what you do to all latinos?
Lahtina wrote: You couldn't say for sure, Chilenita. Here I believe that existencialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre was right: existence precedes essence. Existence: the fact of being, the presence of something, the "thisness," "that it is."Essence: the kind of thing it is, the blueprint, plan, or description, the nature of the thing, "what it is." Sartre means that man intrinsically has no nature. That is, he is thrown into this world, not of his own making, and is condemned to determine what he will be. In other words, our "existence precedes our essence." We exist first and determine our essence by means of choice. So if your mother had been an alcoholic, you would not be the assertive Chilenita that you are so... could you really answer the question? Oh essence and existence! I love that group and saw them perform last year at Ontario place. On a more serious note and one that may entwine a few threads here (the evil that men (BTW i didn't see G(g)od, only humans, in your examples), French thing (existentialism) and this one. What is the essence of the mother in this case? Is she just an alcoholic? Or is she more? Did she not work to pay for the house the kids live in? Did she not save money in a college education fund for her eldest (a discovery during the trial that shocked the eldest of the pair)? Did not a number of her (the mother) friends speak of how he used to talk lovingly and proudly of her daughters? Or that her friends thought highly of her in her own right? Clearly she was more than alcoholic. However when you reduce someone to less than human, (dehumanization) this then gives you license to do things to them you would not normally consider doing to another human being such a torture, slavery, beatings, denial of rights. Hence, by reducing people to just a heretic, a Jew, a black person, a homosexual, an alcoholic , you dehumanize them. This in turn allows for unspeakable acts to now become spoken and in the worst of times doable (inquisition, holocaust, slavery, gay bashing, etc) .
Great post! Your posts are good to read now that you are done being mean
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You couldn't say for sure, Chilenita. Here I believe that existencialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre was right: existence precedes essence. Existence: the fact of being, the presence of something, the "thisness," "that it is."Essence: the kind of thing it is, the blueprint, plan, or description, the nature of the thing, "what it is." Sartre means that man intrinsically has no nature. That is, he is thrown into this world, not of his own making, and is condemned to determine what he will be. In other words, our "existence precedes our essence." We exist first and determine our essence by means of choice. So if your mother had been an alcoholic, you would not be the assertive Chilenita that you are so... could you really answer the question?
Oh essence and existence! I love that group and saw them perform last year at Ontario place.
On a more serious note and one that may entwine a few threads here (the evil that men (BTW i didn't see G(g)od, only humans, in your examples), French thing (existentialism) and this one.
What is the essence of the mother in this case? Is she just an alcoholic? Or is she more? Did she not work to pay for the house the kids live in? Did she not save money in a college education fund for her eldest (a discovery during the trial that shocked the eldest of the pair)? Did not a number of her (the mother) friends speak of how he used to talk lovingly and proudly of her daughters? Or that her friends thought highly of her in her own right? Clearly she was more than alcoholic.
However when you reduce someone to less than human, (dehumanization) this then gives you license to do things to them you would not normally consider doing to another human being such a torture, slavery, beatings, denial of rights. Hence, by reducing people to just a heretic, a Jew, a black person, a homosexual, an alcoholic , you dehumanize them. This in turn allows for unspeakable acts to now become spoken and in the worst of times doable (inquisition, holocaust, slavery, gay bashing, etc) .
I think that everything that these two girls have said about their mother is a bunch of bull. I think that they're using their mother's alcoholism as an excuse to cover up the real truth, which to me is that they wanted to kill their mother for the insurance money, and not for her alcoholism. Nothing can justify killing somebody. Like other people have said why didn't they just run away? They do have other family members, why not go to them for help? I'm sure that their family members would have helped them out, because in the paper it does state that the girls hugged some of their family memebers, which shows that the family was there to support the girls. So if they are trying to say that they didn't have anyone that would help them is a bunch of bull, because then how would they explain those family memebers that were in that courtroom supporting them? Like I said these girls did it for the money. To me it doesn't sound like their lives were that bad. In the star it did state that they drank, and smoked pot, while their mom was on the couch passed out. To me teens who are into doing these type of things would not complain about their mother's alcoholism, because they were doing the same thing as their mother, which means that they wouldn't get in trouble for doing all those things in the house. It was all for the money which was $200,000 worth. They have no excuse for doing what they did.
Sweetness, this comment really makes me think that you're not making a distinction between relative truth and absolute truth.
I think that everything that these two girls have said about their mother is a bunch of bull. I think that they're using their mother's alcoholism as an excuse to cover up the real truth, which to me is that they wanted to kill their mother for the insurance money, and not for her alcoholism. Nothing can justify killing somebody. Like other people have said why didn't they just run away? They do have other family members, why not go to them for help? I'm sure that their family members would have helped them out, because in the paper it does state that the girls hugged some of their family memebers, which shows that the family was there to support the girls. So if they are trying to say that they didn't have anyone that would help them is a bunch of bull, because then how would they explain those family memebers that were in that courtroom supporting them? Like I said these girls did it for the money. To me it doesn't sound like their lives were that bad. In the star it did state that they drank, and smoked pot, while their mom was on the couch passed out. To me teens who are into doing these type of things would not complain about their mother's alcoholism, because they were doing the same thing as their mother, which means that they wouldn't get in trouble for doing all those things in the house. It was all for the money which was $200,000 worth. They have no excuse for doing what they did.
Chilenita wrote: I think the question was would I take matters into my own hands. Yes if my mom was an alcoholic I would take matters into my own hands. I would get help from family members and have an intervention. I would go live with someone else until she got her act togehter. I would do a lot of things but killing her would not be one of them. You couldn't say for sure, Chilenita. Here I believe that existencialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre was right: existence precedes essence. Existence: the fact of being, the presence of something, the "thisness," "that it is."Essence: the kind of thing it is, the blueprint, plan, or description, the nature of the thing, "what it is." Sartre means that man intrinsically has no nature. That is, he is thrown into this world, not of his own making, and is condemned to determine what he will be. In other words, our "existence precedes our essence." We exist first and determine our essence by means of choice.So if your mother had been an alcoholic, you would not be the assertive Chilenita that you are so... could you really answer the question?
Lahtina my mom is an alcoholic......
Okay so no she isn't and that is a bad joke but I am a binge drinker....what does that have to do with anything you ask.....NOTHING I have no point.
I would like to think that I would not have become a murderer no matter what. Stop making me think so hard on Xmas week
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I think the question was would I take matters into my own hands. Yes if my mom was an alcoholic I would take matters into my own hands. I would get help from family members and have an intervention. I would go live with someone else until she got her act togehter. I would do a lot of things but killing her would not be one of them.
You couldn't say for sure, Chilenita. Here I believe that existencialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre was right: existence precedes essence.
Existence: the fact of being, the presence of something, the "thisness," "that it is." Essence: the kind of thing it is, the blueprint, plan, or description, the nature of the thing, "what it is."
Sartre means that man intrinsically has no nature. That is, he is thrown into this world, not of his own making, and is condemned to determine what he will be. In other words, our "existence precedes our essence." We exist first and determine our essence by means of choice.
So if your mother had been an alcoholic, you would not be the assertive Chilenita that you are so... could you really answer the question?
I think the question was would I take matters into my own hands. Yes if my mom was an alcoholic I would take matters into my own hands. I would get help from family members and have an intervention. I would go live with someone else until she got her act togehter. I would do a lot of things but killing her would not be one of them.
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I kind of see where Confundida is coming from. We have to keep in mind that these girls must have endured years of psychological abuse and were therefore not in the same mind frame as you and I. I don't think it's up to us to morally judge them because we don't know what they went through all those years. I think it's very comfortable for some people to be self-righteous and say: I hope they get what they deserve but like I said before, we have no right to judge these girls. They have, no doubt, acted against the legal laws and it's up to the courts to convict them and hand down the sentence they think applies.
True Paradox! They may have endured alot and I don't judge them ... i mean if they would have done what they did asi como se dice in the spur of the moment (is that how you say it) then I would say these girls need help and could plead something like self defense (keep in mid I still think it's morally wrong to take a person's life) ... but these girls PREMEDITATED their action, they planned it out ...
I kind of see where Confundida is coming from. We have to keep in mind that these girls must have endured years of psychological abuse and were therefore not in the same mind frame as you and I. I don't think it's up to us to morally judge them because we don't know what they went through all those years. I think it's very comfortable for some people to be self-righteous and say: I hope they get what they deserve but like I said before, we have no right to judge these girls.
They have, no doubt, acted against the legal laws and it's up to the courts to convict them and hand down the sentence they think applies.
Ummm, I feel bad for them ... I mean they probably lived a miserable life, but that wasn't an answer ... Others have it worse and they don't resort to such actions ...
@ Chale: that part about getting beaten all day ans stuff and they couldn't do anything else but kill well in that case it wouldn't be murder it would have been SELF DEFENSE ...
I mean, these girls premeditated all this ... they knew what they were doing ... they asked around they PLANNED it out ... they killed their mother in my eyes because they wanted to ... I mean maybe they didn't have the freedom they wanted as their mother was in their way, they wanted the "Perfect Murder" ...
Now, they have to live with this for the rest of their lives ...
Never for any reason could I ever, ever kill anyone little less my own mother (no matter what).
I feel bad for the girls cause it must of been a harsh life they had, in order to get that far.
But at the end of the day I hope they do get punish cause it would teach them a good lesson. Hopefully from that lesson they will learn to deal better with problems, then taking the easy way out (like killing). I would think they get counselling & will learn disciplince that would help them later in life.
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Lahtina wrote: Dogo wrote: Bainaman wrote: Lahtina wrote: Interesting Confu... is murder ever justified? And no Baina, I wouldn't murder my mother. But you'd have someone do it for you....right?!?!?!? I'M PLAYING!!!!!!!! Ok gotta go before Confu sees me in this thread no, that would be her MIL (bet you she's tempted now!! LOL!) LOL you know me too well now. I think I should get some credit for abstaining myself. KUDOS!!!
NO BAINA LAHTINA DOESNT HAVE CUTIES..... U CAN HOLD HER HAND IF YOU WANT..... BUT FIRST GET THE HELL OUT MY THREAD!!!!!
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Lahtina wrote: Dogo wrote: Bainaman wrote: Lahtina wrote: Interesting Confu... is murder ever justified? And no Baina, I wouldn't murder my mother. But you'd have someone do it for you....right?!?!?!? I'M PLAYING!!!!!!!! Ok gotta go before Confu sees me in this thread no, that would be her MIL (bet you she's tempted now!! LOL!)
LOL you know me too well now. I think I should get some credit for abstaining myself.
KUDOS!!!
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I don't understand how they could have done that to their mother. I would never be able to kill anyone, if i were them , i would have just left. There are help out there. I hope they get the worst punishment there is!!
confundida wrote: MAYBE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO END THE TORCHER, OR THE ONLY WAY OUT.......SOME PPL RATHER PUT ANOTHER PERSON OUT OF THERE MISERY.....ITS THE SAME THING.....WOULD U PULL THE CORD IF YOU KNEW IT WAS THERE ONLY WAY OF SURVIVAL...DOES THAT MAKE YOU A MURDERER??? If the girls were chained up in a dark dungeon while being beaten to a bloody pulp on the daily, then yes, I would see muder as their only way out... but these girls lived at home, they were free to leave whenever they wanted to. Why did they not opt to leave home and seek a foster home or stay with relatives or even friends... why choose to murder their mom?
BECAUSE MAYBE THEY WANTED TO FREE THEMSELVES AND THERE STEPBROTHER (REFER BACK TO ARTICLE FROM THE STAR) MAYBE THEY RAN OUT OF IDEAS......
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Bainaman wrote: Lahtina wrote: Interesting Confu... is murder ever justified? And no Baina, I wouldn't murder my mother. But you'd have someone do it for you....right?!?!?!? I'M PLAYING!!!!!!!! Ok gotta go before Confu sees me in this thread no, that would be her MIL (bet you she's tempted now!! LOL!)
LOL you know me too well now. I think I should get some credit for abstaining myself.
MAYBE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO END THE TORCHER, OR THE ONLY WAY OUT.......SOME PPL RATHER PUT ANOTHER PERSON OUT OF THERE MISERY.....ITS THE SAME THING.....WOULD U PULL THE CORD IF YOU KNEW IT WAS THERE ONLY WAY OF SURVIVAL...DOES THAT MAKE YOU A MURDERER???
If the girls were chained up in a dark dungeon while being beaten to a bloody pulp on the daily, then yes, I would see muder as their only way out... but these girls lived at home, they were free to leave whenever they wanted to. Why did they not opt to leave home and seek a foster home or stay with relatives or even friends... why choose to murder their mom?
Lahtina wrote: Interesting Confu... is murder ever justified? And no Baina, I wouldn't murder my mother. YES I PERSONALLY THINK IT IS......... SOMETIMES WHEN YOU ASK FOR HELP PPL TURN THERE BACK ON YOU OR MAKE U BELIVE THAT UR THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM..... SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO TAKE THINGS IN YOUR HANDS......-- Edited by confundida at 21:46, 2005-12-16
Hellz ya, if you want something well done, you gotta do it yourself.
No but seriously, I don't think I'd have what it takes to kill but I do have what it takes to do mean stuff to people, hehehehehe, like putting chili powder in the coffeemaker or something like that. Of course I'll never admit to it if I'm caught.
confundida wrote: Lahtina wrote: U PERSONALLY THINK IT IS......... SOMETIMES WHEN YOU ASK FOR HELP PPL TURN THERE BACK ON YOU OR MAKE U BELIVE THAT UR THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM..... SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO TAKE THINGS IN YOUR HANDS...... but MURDER?!?!? Thats kinda extreme! Slash their tires, set their clothes on fire, kick em in the head, put red fire ants in their bed if you must, but MURDER?!?!?
MAYBE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO END THE TORCHER, OR THE ONLY WAY OUT.......SOME PPL RATHER PUT ANOTHER PERSON OUT OF THERE MISERY.....ITS THE SAME THING.....WOULD U PULL THE CORD IF YOU KNEW IT WAS THERE ONLY WAY OF SURVIVAL...DOES THAT MAKE YOU A MURDERER???
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Lahtina wrote: Interesting Confu... is murder ever justified? And no Baina, I wouldn't murder my mother. But you'd have someone do it for you....right?!?!?!? I'M PLAYING!!!!!!!! Ok gotta go before Confu sees me in this thread
no, that would be her MIL (bet you she's tempted now!! LOL!)
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confundida wrote: Lahtina wrote: confundida wrote: Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................ Speculating, assuming, wondering, hypothesizing, conjecturing? But yeah, Baina, that's not the same as justifying. Speculating, I DONT LIKE THAT WORD assuming, MAYBE PERO TAMPOCO wondering, I CONFUSE MEMBA hypothesizing,ESO TAMBIEN conjecturing LO KE???? BULLSHITING?
OMG, you're still here?
Bainaman... and spend a whole bunch of money? No, thanks, I'd rather do it myself.
confundida wrote: Lahtina wrote: confundida wrote: Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................ Speculating, assuming, wondering, hypothesizing, conjecturing? But yeah, Baina, that's not the same as justifying. Speculating, I DONT LIKE THAT WORD assuming, MAYBE PERO TAMPOCO wondering, I CONFUSE MEMBA hypothesizing,ESO TAMBIEN conjecturing LO KE???? BULLSHITING?
BULLSHITING?: NO GRACIAS....ONLY SMART A$$ ANSWER ALLOWED.......
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U PERSONALLY THINK IT IS......... SOMETIMES WHEN YOU ASK FOR HELP PPL TURN THERE BACK ON YOU OR MAKE U BELIVE THAT UR THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM..... SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO TAKE THINGS IN YOUR HANDS......
but MURDER?!?!? Thats kinda extreme!
Slash their tires, set their clothes on fire, kick em in the head, put red fire ants in their bed if you must, but MURDER?!?!?
Lahtina wrote: confundida wrote: Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................ Speculating, assuming, wondering, hypothesizing, conjecturing? But yeah, Baina, that's not the same as justifying. Speculating, I DONT LIKE THAT WORD assuming, MAYBE PERO TAMPOCO wondering, I CONFUSE MEMBA hypothesizing,ESO TAMBIEN conjecturing LO KE????
BULLSHITING?
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confundida wrote: @BAINA I NEED HELP MIRA KIEN HABLA.....MAKING UP SUCH FIGHTS TO GET PPL TO GO TO CERVEJARIA...... HUH?!?!?!? Nada que ver one thing with the other... I don't even play at Cervejaria.... I apologies for entering you COOL thread........I'll go back to my GEEKY threads..... BYES!!!!
BUT I MADE THIS THREAD JUST FOR YOU........ SO KE TE!!!!
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confundida wrote: Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................ Speculating, assuming, wondering, hypothesizing, conjecturing? But yeah, Baina, that's not the same as justifying.
Speculating, I DONT LIKE THAT WORD
assuming, MAYBE PERO TAMPOCO
wondering, I CONFUSE MEMBA
hypothesizing,ESO TAMBIEN
conjecturing LO KE????
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Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................
Speculating, assuming, wondering, hypothesizing, conjecturing? But yeah, Baina, that's not the same as justifying.
confundida wrote: OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................ 1. playing devil's advocate 2. inquiring for the sake of conversation 3. probing WHAT??? DAMN IT! TELL US WOMAN!
MAKING A THEORITICAL GUESS...... OR EDUCATED GUESS.......OPENING UP DIFFERENT VIEWS........
WAT THE WORD.....
@BAINA
I NEED HELP MIRA KIEN HABLA.....MAKING UP SUCH FIGHTS TO GET PPL TO GO TO CERVEJARIA......
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confundida wrote: OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................
1. playing devil's advocate 2. inquiring for the sake of conversation 3. probing
confundida wrote: Bainaman wrote: confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!? OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................
You need help!!!!
LOL
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confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........ So that justifies them killing their mom?!?!?!? Are you kidding?!?!?!?
OK AT WAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING..... IM JUST (COMO SE DICE....WHAT THE WORD......WHERE LAHTINA ...... U KNOW THAT WORD.....) I HAVE IT AT THE TIP OF MY TONGUE........ GUESSING (NOPE, THAT NOT IT!!) BUT U KNOW WAT I MEAN................
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confundida wrote: MAYBE THEY ASKED FOR HELP AND NEVER GOT ANY........
I dont think that they did. If you pay attention to the girls, they both seemed to be really proud of their accomplishment and the fact that they had gotten away with 'the perfect murder'. They dont seem remorseful at all. Someone who was seeking help or an out to their situation would not be bragging about a murder.
They should have just ran away or moved out. Murdering their mother didnt solve their problem, if anything it just made it worst. Now they are facing jail time and the wrath of the legal justice system whereas before all they had to deal with was an alcoholic mother.
Two teenage sisters were found guilty Thursday of first-degree murder in the bathtub drowning death of their alcoholic mother, in what the judge called the strongest case he'd seen in three decades.
The sisters, now 18 and 19, planned their mother's Jan. 18, 2003 death by making sure she was drunk and drugged with Tylenol 3 before she took a bath at the family home in Mississauga.
In separate conversations secretly taped by police, the girls complained their mother's alcoholism made their lives unbearable and that their younger brother was better off without her.
"The two defendants set out to commit the perfect crime, but instead they created the perfect prosecution," Justice Bruce Duncan said Thursday morning in releasing his verdict.
"The case against them is overwhelming. It is probably the strongest case I have ever seen in over 30 years of prosecuting, defending and judging criminal cases."
AFTER READING THIS WAT WOULD U HAVE DONE???
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f uck off ! 
what a sweetie!
I have no point.
"Most of us fall short much more by omission than by commission."
