I was considering applying the philosophy of Kant to this problem but I think I’ll approach it from a much more personal level.

 

You’re asking what constitutes life and what responsibilities do we have towards it.

 

I do not have an answer.

 

I can say that I have seen mentally and/or physically challenged children experience a lot of joy and give a lot of joy to those around them.  For me, this is an import factor in the issue.

 

There is a famous priest (no I don’t have some religious agenda but nor am I completely objective spiritually/religiously speaking) named Jean Vanier who runs a program called L’arch and it s purpose is to provide a home and community for those who are severely mentally and physically challenged. I heard him speak once at a Massey Lecture series based on his experience with L’arch.  I was, to say the least, profoundly moved about what he had to say (and I’m not one easily move). He wrote a book called On Being Human (BTW it’s very short) based on his lectures.

 

Let me first say that I am pro-choice- I whole heartedly believe it’s the woman decision to do with her body what she pleases. But if the choice was mine, (and pray that it may never be mine) I don’t think I could have an abortion (I’m leaving the door open, however, because I’m not at all sure what I would be capable of doing until I was actually there).   If my partner decided to abort the deformed fetus I would support her 100% (and to be honest -a bit relieved) However, mainly because of what I have seen in my life, read about, and heard (the said lectures), if I was presented with such a child I would assume full responsibility and devote my life, like any other future child of mine, to raising him/her.

 

Having a two headed baby (babies?) complicates the matter. I believe I would opt for the surgery and do my best with surviving child.

-- Edited by neruda at 17:05, 2005-12-16

Bainaman wrote:

---

Do you think that woman should go around having sex, willingly...and then if they get pragnant.......they could just as easily get rid of an unwated life? Does that not sound wrong to you???? Maybe it's just me.....I don't know..... But again......all a matter of opinions....

---

I'll get back to you on this one later. I'm going to work out now.

 

 

 

P.S. You're the loser!

Lahtina wrote:

---

Twin, it is an amazing story and I would have done everything in my power to save my brother's life as well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This of course doesn't mean that Bainaman is right or wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong. It just is.
 

---

You're such a loser!!!!




But I love it when you play devils advocate.........

chica wow wrote:

---

Dogo wrote: For example irreversible brain damage with NO hope of ever recouperating, I would think that the merciful thing to do would be to pull the plug, but that’s just me, and I guess we all draw that “line” at different lenghts       Ok...So I was trying to stay away from this thread because I can't tell you what I would do if I was in any of those situation. But I will share something with you guys about my brother: He was hit by car at a cross walk in front of his school, the driver was an elderly women (89 years to be exact). She dragged him with her car and he landed on the pavement head first. He almost didn't make it to the hospital, he lost a like 30 % of his brain, he had a high fever which could have caused him death and his brain was swelling, so that made it even worth.  The doctors suggested to bring his temperature down with ice, until he turned blue. He was in a coma for about a month, the doctors couldn't tell us if he was going to make it or not but they tried everything that medicine could offer.....to make a long story short, he came out of the coma, he had no control of the right side of his body, lost his memory but with therapy and the help of the doctors and of course God he is doing better. I am happy to say that he was able to graduate from high school and will also go to College.(something that most healthy PPL can't do) So yeah!!! Why give up, when the doctor's are available and God has given them the ability to save lifes....

---

Twin, it is an amazing story and I would have done everything in my power to save my brother's life as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This of course doesn't mean that Bainaman is right or wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong. It just is.

 

chica wow wrote:

---

Ok...So I was trying to stay away from this thread because I can't tell you what I would do if I was in any of those situation.
But I will share something with you guys about my brother:
He was hit by car at a cross walk in front of his school, the driver was an elderly women (89 years to be exact). She dragged him with her car and he landed on the pavement head first. He almost didn't make it to the hospital, he lost a like 30 % of his brain, he had a high fever which could have caused him death and his brain was swelling, so that made it even worth.
 The doctors suggested to bring his temperature down with ice, until he turned blue. He was in a coma for about a month, the doctors couldn't tell us if he was going to make it or not but they tried everything that medicine could offer.....to make a long story short, he came out of the coma, he had no control of the right side of his body, lost his memory but with therapy and the help of the doctors and of course God he is doing better. I am happy to say that he was able to graduate from high school and will also go to College.(something that most healthy PPL can't do)
So yeah!!! Why give up, when the doctor's are available and God has given them the ability to save lifes....

---

WOW!!!!

Thanks for sharing the story.

I'm glad to hear your brother is doing well.

Bainaman wrote:

---

Lahtina wrote: Not at all, in this case there is nothing wrong with benefiting from the ego of another. However, I'm still going to say that if I had been the mother and I had known during the pregnancy I would have chosen to terminate the pregnancy. One of the "babies" ended up dying, the other one is probably brain damaged and in need of special treatments, care in order to stay alive. What are these people going to do? Is Dr. I-will-go-down-in-medicine's-history-books going to take the baby under his wing forever? That's why I'm very much pro-choice. Most of society and church is quick to condemn abortion, hell the catholic church doesn't even condone birth control, but when it's all said and done do they step in and help care for those unwanted children? Correct me if I'm wrong.... Are you saying that if you knew you were going to have a baby with down syndrome or something alike.....You'd abort it??? If so.....why???

---

You're asking the wrong person here. I don't even know what I'd do with a healthy child. Ever since I was a teenager I've had this fear of having children. I even had a list of reasons why not to have a child. Most of the reasons were related to pain and vanity but as I got older and I became aware of life and man'kind' I developed even more fear.

Sometimes I think all my thoughts and fears have cursed me and I can't have any children. I don't know. Even when I thought I was finally ready and I was going to take the plunge... "wa-wa" no baby. So, yeah, I don't know.

Bainaman wrote:

---

DulceGalletita wrote: Bainaman wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong.... Are you saying that if you knew you were going to have a baby with down syndrome or something alike.....You'd abort it??? If so.....why??? Going on a curve on this conversation ... but isn't it interesting that DS children look the same no matter what race or colour ... I love them soo much ... these children are so cute and intelligent ... Para mi que Diosito tiene sus razones ...   I haven't delt with many.....but the onces I've seen.....are always happy and smiling.........They probably feel sorry for us!

---

@BAINAMAN: they are they see the world different then us ... no se pero me encantaria conocer mas como miran ellos al mundo, 'cause your right many are always smiling

DulceGalletita wrote:

---

Bainaman wrote:
 Correct me if I'm wrong.... Are you saying that if you knew you were going to have a baby with down syndrome or something alike.....You'd abort it??? If so.....why???

Going on a curve on this conversation ... but isn't it interesting that DS children look the same no matter what race or colour ... I love them soo much ... these children are so cute and intelligent ... Para mi que Diosito tiene sus razones ...
 

---

I haven't delt with many.....but the onces I've seen.....are always happy and smiling.........They probably feel sorry for us!

Bainaman wrote:

---

 Correct me if I'm wrong.... Are you saying that if you knew you were going to have a baby with down syndrome or something alike.....You'd abort it??? If so.....why???

---

Going on a curve on this conversation ... but isn't it interesting that DS children look the same no matter what race or colour ... I love them soo much ... these children are so cute and intelligent ... Para mi que Diosito tiene sus razones ...

 

okay so after all this debate, what happend to the two little kids?
Did they both live?

What happened?

Everyone of those situations is different.....be it from the type of illness, the likelyhood of recovery, financial situation, etc.....

My point is....that I'd waste every resourse available to me....in order to give my loved one a chance to live......regardless.....





And about the Argentinos being arrogant..............Not all of them are......







































....but they are A$$HOLES!!!!!!!

Bainaman wrote:

---

  I have to highly disagree with you. If you heard the boy whos skin fell off....speak........You'd hear a different side....and maybe....just maybe....you'd change your mind. How incredibly arrogant are you (in general terms) to think that your life is that much better....and therefore the kid who's life is of "poor quality" has nothing to live for? About the respirator thing........Have you not heard of people coming out of comas they've been in for years??? What if that was your daughter...or mother.......would you not want to give them the chance to come out of it???  

---

Granted, I should’ve never said “this” life, ‘cause I didn’t watch the show and don’t know the case well enough, but in many cases where the quality of life is soooo poor that nobody would deserve living that way… I don’t know man

For example irreversible brain damage with NO hope of ever recouperating, I would think that the merciful thing to do would be to pull the plug, but that’s just me, and I guess we all draw that “line” at different lenghts 

 

Would I even consider that the child with no skin, as in your example, has nothing to live for?? For the love of god!!! NOOOO! Of course I don’t think that.

The respirator example was just that, an example, would I pull the plug on someone in a coma with hopes to come out of it and live a normal life??? Come on bro!! You should know me better than that

 

I guess I should’ve been more specific as to where I draw the line between “poor” or “not so poor” quality of life, I guess I would need too many examples to specify that, but it’s not where I might’ve made it sound it is, or where you might think it is

 

And the arrogant thing…. Is just the argentino in me, lol!!

 

Dogo wrote:

---

Having the power to extend this life with such a poor quality is nothing more than food for modern medicine’s ego

---

This is so true and it goes along with what I was saying about rich people being the only ones who have to choice of extending or improving their quality of life.

The woman from last night's story was very unlikely unable to afford the procedure that would allow her daughter to perhaps live a better life. But it was still performed, why? For the child's sake or for the sake of modern medicine? You won't see modern medicine being so generous with patients from other illnesses or injuries that don't really need to be researched for the further development of medicine.

Dogo wrote:

---

What about mercy? Having the power to extend this life with such a poor quality is nothing more than food for modern medicine’s ego Having the power to end such a life, I find it to be truly an act of mercy, in fact I find it incredibly noble. Have no doubt that we will all find ourselves in such a heart wrenching situation where we’ll have to make that call   How is FORCING someone to live a horrible life more natural than being able to put some one out of their misery?? You either believe that nature should take it’s course, or you don’t   “Natures” intention of us being able to extend a life can’t be any greater than it’s intention for us  to end a life out of mercy, you can’t have it both ways, that’s just opportunistic!   To have a loved one with no hope of living, on an artificial respirator, for example, is, in my opinion, the ultimate act of selfishness. Do you think it’s any easier or rewarding to end a loved ones life out of mercy than it is to make the decision of “maintaining” it?       BTW, if I’m ever in an accident and only my ears are left! Please kill me!!….I mean them….. I mean my ears, kill my ears!!!  

---

I have to highly disagree with you.

If you heard the boy whos skin fell off....speak........You'd hear a different side....and maybe....just maybe....you'd change your mind.

How incredibly arrogant are you (in general terms) to think that your life is that much better....and therefore the kid who's life is of "poor quality" has nothing to live for?

About the respirator thing........Have you not heard of people coming out of comas they've been in for years??? What if that was your daughter...or mother.......would you not want to give them the chance to come out of it???

 

Lahtina wrote:

---

Dogo wrote: Lahtina wrote: Dogo wrote: BTW, if I’m ever in an accident and only my ears are left! Please kill me!!….I mean them….. I mean my ears, kill my ears!!!   NOoooooooo, don't ask us to do that, Dogo! I don't know if we'll be able to bring ourselves to do that. I doubt you'd have much trouble with that Your ears happen to be the only part of you I like.

---

You couldn't know that for sure! lol!

Lahtina wrote:

---

Dogo wrote: BTW, if I’m ever in an accident and only my ears are left! Please kill me!!….I mean them….. I mean my ears, kill my ears!!!   NOoooooooo, don't ask us to do that, Dogo! I don't know if we'll be able to bring ourselves to do that.

---

that's a hard call!!LOL!!

Dogo wrote:

---

BTW, if I’m ever in an accident and only my ears are left! Please kill me!!….I mean them….. I mean my ears, kill my ears!!!  

---

NOoooooooo, don't ask us to do that, Dogo! I don't know if we'll be able to bring ourselves to do that.

What about mercy? Having the power to extend this life with such a poor quality is nothing more than food for modern medicine’s ego

Having the power to end such a life, I find it to be truly an act of mercy, in fact I find it incredibly noble. Have no doubt that we will all find ourselves in such a heart wrenching situation where we’ll have to make that call

 

How is FORCING someone to live a horrible life more natural than being able to put some one out of their misery??

You either believe that nature should take it’s course, or you don’t

 

“Natures” intention of us being able to extend a life can’t be any greater than it’s intention for us  to end a life out of mercy, you can’t have it both ways, that’s just opportunistic!

 

To have a loved one with no hope of living, on an artificial respirator, for example, is, in my opinion, the ultimate act of selfishness. Do you think it’s any easier or rewarding to end a loved ones life out of mercy than it is to make the decision of “maintaining” it?

 

 

 

BTW, if I’m ever in an accident and only my ears are left! Please kill me!!….I mean them….. I mean my ears, kill my ears!!!

 

GENIE wrote:

---

Bainaman wrote: YOU SHOULD PUT TLC RIGHT NOW....   OMG!!!!!   POBRESITA!!!!!!             YEAH I WAS WATCHING THIS LAST NIGHT AS WELL AS THE 84LB BABY ARCHIE AND THE BOY WHOS SKIN FELL OFF!! VERY EMOTIONAL STORIES I THINK REGARDLESS I WOULD HAVE MY BABIES EVEN IF I KNEW WHAT WAS TO COME. ITS LIKE IF UR GOING TO HAVE A BABY WITH DOWNSYNDROME WOULD U ALSO ABORT?? THIS IS TO LAHTINA, I MEAN U KNOW UR BABY IS TERMANILLY ILL! AND WILL NEVER BE "NORM" BUT WHO REALLY KNOWS WHAT "NORM" IS??  

---

Well Genie, that's a very hard question to answer. What determines if an act is good or bad first of all? Is an act good when the object, the intention, and the circumstances are all good. That idea goes back to the XVIII century and it doesn't even make sense. An act is good because it's good.

Here is what I believe: An act is good is good when it conforms to the needs of human nature. Plus, like neruda has pointed out before, it also requires that you act freely and rationally. Thus we have that killing is bad because it goes against the most intimate need of human nature which always tends towards life. Stealing is bad because it goes against human property which you need to subsist. That is why no one saw Robin Hood as being evil. The rich obviously don't need that much property to live and the poor needed something.

So, if you ask me, would I have chosen to continue the pregnancy of a child that is not "normal". Doesn't a child that will never be independent go against human nature? This baby will always need someone to care for it in order to subsist. I don't know how ethical my choice of bringing a child into this life would be.

About 2-3 weeks ago in the news I heard about a teenager who was found dead in her bedroom. She had died of thirst and hunger. She was disabled and needed someone to care for her. The mother had been arrested and failed to notify anyone that she had a disabled child at home. Now that forced me to think of all the other disabled people of the world, what will become of them when the caregiver isn't there anymore? 

El Duro wrote:

---

I think there arabs

---

The two headed babies were from Egypt.

The 84 lbs baby is from England.

DulceGalletita wrote:

---

Bainaman wrote: DulceGalletita wrote: Ohhhh!! Pobresito ... He had MOMO Syndrome. MOMO syndrome is an extremely rare genetic disorder which belongs to the overgrowth syndromes and has been diagnosed in only four cases around the world. The name is an acronym of the four primary aspects of the disorder: Macrosomia (excessive birth weight), Obesity, Macrocephaly (excessive head size) and Ocular abnormalities. It was first diagnosed in 1993 by Professor Célia Priszkulnik Koiffmann, a Brazilian researcher in the Genetic and Clinical Studies of neurodevelopmental disorders. Wow! only 4 cases ... ... So how old is this baby? and where is he from ...

---

WHEN THE DOCUMENTRY WAS MADE HE WAS 2YRS OLD AND HE RESIDES IN ENGLAND WHERE HE WAS BORN AND LIVES

 THEY ALSO SAID THAT HE WONT LIVE PAST A CERTAIN AGE BUT THE GIRL IN BRAZIL THE FIRST CASE EVER WAS 17 YRS OLD AT THE TIME AND LIVING A "NORMAL" LIFE!

DulceGalletita wrote:

---

Ohhhh!! Pobresito ...

---

He had MOMO Syndrome.


MOMO syndrome is an extremely rare genetic disorder which belongs to the overgrowth syndromes and has been diagnosed in only four cases around the world. The name is an acronym of the four primary aspects of the disorder: Macrosomia (excessive birth weight), Obesity, Macrocephaly (excessive head size) and Ocular abnormalities. It was first diagnosed in 1993 by Professor Célia Priszkulnik Koiffmann, a Brazilian researcher in the Genetic and Clinical Studies of neurodevelopmental disorders.

Quality TV these days uh???

I only use mine to watch DVDs and Seinfeld.

GENIE wrote:

---

Bainaman wrote: YOU SHOULD PUT TLC RIGHT NOW....   OMG!!!!!   POBRESITA!!!!!!             YEAH I WAS WATCHING THIS LAST NIGHT AS WELL AS THE 84LB BABY ARCHIE AND THE BOY WHOS SKIN FELL OFF!! VERY EMOTIONAL STORIES I THINK REGARDLESS I WOULD HAVE MY BABIES EVEN IF I KNEW WHAT WAS TO COME. ITS LIKE IF UR GOING TO HAVE A BABY WITH DOWNSYNDROME WOULD U ALSO ABORT?? THIS IS TO LAHTINA, I MEAN U KNOW UR BABY IS TERMANILLY ILL! AND WILL NEVER BE "NORM" BUT WHO REALLY KNOWS WHAT "NORM" IS??  

---

OMG this is sooo sad ... Umm, Genie the 84lbs baby?? how many months is the baby??? OMG ... osea que le dan de comer ... this just baffles me completely ...