Hello all

This is a long enough article....but to me it was worth reading, and I would enjoy to read your different opinions.

It is worth the read.  Post your comments please.  (By the way, the guy in the picture is Eric Morillo, he will be at Lot 332 on sunday, Nov. 13 2005.  I am sure it will be awesome, he hasnt been in Toronto in about 5 years.  For more info on him visit www.Subliminal.com or www.EricMorillo.com (or something like that))

SOMETHING WORTH READING

http://lasvegas.clubplanet.com/

October 07, 2005

Hip-Hop and House. Yankees and Red Sox. Aniston and Jolie.

There's some bad blood.

Sure, it's possible to like both genres, but most club-goers have an emphatic preference. Which one is "better?" Of course that's impossible to debate.

Two brave writers, however, dare to attempt the impossible. In the first of a two-part series, the writers trade blows on which genre is hotter, which has the most artistic merit, and which is the greater force in nightlife.

In this corner: Emily Tan, a journalist for DJ Times, argues the merits of House. (Or "Dance," technically.)

In this corner: Lauren Saft, a lifelong Hip-Hop enthusiast, carries the torch for Hip-Hop.

The article is long. But it's nasty. Thankfully, Emily and Lauren have never met in person. Let's keep it that way.


Question 1: At the risk of sounding like Paris Hilton, which one is "hotter" at the moment?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Flip on your television. Hip-Hop has not only taken over mainstream music in specific, but popular cultural in general. Forgetting BET, what's intended to be the "hip-hop" channel, MTV and VH1 are undeniably dominated by Hip-Hop songs, videos, stars, and trends, and those are just the (supposedly) musically oriented channels. Watch Entourage, The O.C., The Real World, or even a Coca Cola commercial, and a rap song will no doubt resonate as background music.


Common Sense, a well respected, talented, and at one time relatively underground Emcee, is the spokesman for Coke, The Black Eyed Peas are for Dr. Pepper, Rahzel is for Twix, Method Man for Speed Stick deodorant, and the list goes on. Hip-Hop is what's selling right now, and it's evident by the fact that it's being used to sell everything else too.

Emily Tan (Dance):

There has never been any hip-hop artist more influential than the late, great Johnny Cash, so does that mean country music is "hotter" than hip-hop?

NASCAR is far more popular in the U.S. than football, baseball, basketball or hockey -- does that mean that NASCAR is "hotter" than the NBA?

Groups like Kraftwerk, Depeche Mode and Underworld are still affecting today's biggest DJs and the music they create. Moby, Fatboy Slim, Ming & FS and Paul Oakenfold have each provided more original music for TV commercials than you realize.

BT (Brian Transeau), considered one of the original pioneers of trance, composed not only the film scores to The Fast and the Furious, Monster, Go and Stealth, but he also devised, co-produced and scored the hit TV reality show, “Tommy Lee Goes to College," Peter Gabriel said of Transeau, "BT mounts mesmerizing journeys with his compositions. BT is not only a virtuoso performer, but an extremely gifted musician." When was the last time a song-writing icon described Diddy as a "virtuoso" or "an extremely gifted musician"?

One of the most intelligent hip-hop artists who's broken-out in the last five years is Mike Skinner aka The Streets. Then again, Skinner hails from the UK.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Maybe no one has ever described Diddy as a "virtuoso" or "an extremely gifted musician," but plenty of people have described him as a "pop cultural icon" and "the hottest name in the music industry." And hip-hoppers like Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Immortal Technique and even Eminem have all been praised as gifted songwriters.

The definition of "hot" is certainly relative, but I'm going to go ahead that hot implies sexy, hot implies popular, and no one can deny that hip-hop is certainly so hot right now...

Question 2: Which is better for dancing?

Emily Tan (Dance):


Obviously, dance music is meant for dancing, hence the name. It depends on one's definition of "dancing." If you consider "dancing" to be akin to aerobic exercise, such as jumping up & down non-stop for 6, 8, 15 hours...and if you consider "dancing" to be the expression of joy experienced while listening to high-energy, booming, ecstatic music whilst the smile-lines etch themselves deeper and deeper into your face and while the sweat pours from your skin, and while...reaching for the sky and pumping your fists in the air to the booming 4/4 beat as the sub-bass rumbles your intestines...then, I'd say dance music is better for dancing.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Like you said, if you consider "dancing" to be aimlessly flailing yourself about, then yes, electronic music is more conducive to that. But if you consider "dancing" anything that requires any kind of skill, or technical, rhythmic, and sometimes relatively complicated and difficult movements of the body, sometimes involving coordination with the movement of another person, than hip-hop is really better for “dancing.” To be a GOOD hip-hop dancer is an amazing skill, and should be respected as an impressive talent.


One must also talk about hip-hop as the backbone of breaking. Break dancing is an amazing art form, and its devotees study for years are undoubtedly talented and hardworking. The word "hip-hop" originally encompassed, not only the music, but also the entire culture surrounding it. The four pillars of hip-hop are the Emcee, the DJ, graffiti, and the B-Boy. It may be called "electronic dance music," but you cannot take the dancing away from hip-hop, they are engrained in each other.

Question 3: Which has had the greater influence on pop culture?

Emily Tan (Dance):

On pop culture? Well, hip-hop does sell more at retail, but there's no accounting for taste. And just because more little girls are into dressing like hookers and more little boys are growing up thinking it's ok to call their female friends "bee-atches" or "ho's," that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Say what you will about the culture of "superstar DJ" or about drugs taken at raves, but dance music -- electronic dance music includes the sub-genres of house, techno, trance, tribal, trip-hop, drum and bass, breaks or breakbeat, two-step and countless other sub-genres into the broader genre of electronic dance music -- is life-affirming, celebratory, positive, generally optimistic and international.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

The exact same thing can be said about hip-hop. Yes, there are songs about ****es and ho's and poppin’ caps in asses, but there are also A LOT of songs about love and peace, and with real political and intelligent messages.

Popular emcees like Common Sense, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Black Thought, Guru, and even a lot (not all) of Tupac all speak very eloquently about love, politics, and racial injustice. Some messages are poetic, positive, and optimistic, and some are not, but all are important and true to the original spirit of hip-hop and revolutionary music.

Emily Tan (Dance):

Dance music DJs travel the world -- hence the term "global DJ" -- and connect people from around the world. As Paul Van Dyk once told DJ Times, "I can go to clubs in Tokyo or Tel Aviv or Moscow, and I can play my music and feel people in the crowd connecting with me and understanding the music. I can go to a country where I don't speak one word of their language and feel them getting into the music and giving me back energy...and that's an incredible feeling."


Dance music is inherently humane, futuristic and technologically advanced, and dance music can often be cerebral (Richie Hawtin, Moby, Chris Liebing), sophisticated (John Digweed, Sasha, Paul Van Dyk) and is always meant to move the body (Carl Cox, Fatboy Slim, DJ Boris).

Dance music does NOT glorify guns or violence, and dance music does NOT reward the conspicuous consumption of material objects like pricey clothing, automobiles, boats, jewelry or furs. The closest thing to "bling" for a dance music DJ might be a Urei 1620 LE or an Allen & Heath Xone:92 mixer, or maybe a Pioneer EFX-1000 effects unit.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Again, not all hip-hop is about bling, violence, and sexism. Much is, but not all, and credit should be given to hip-hop as a form, rather than referring to it by a few of its lower class examples. As far as electronic music uniting the world, I agree that dance music is huge on an international scale, but because hip-hop is the dominant force in American pop-culture right now, its sheer popularity in America combined with the emergence of the undeniably unified global youth culture (leaning towards American youth culture), puts hip-hop's influence everywhere.

And the immense popularity of over-the-top, shallow, "messageless" hip-hop can’t possibly be an accident. The appeal of that kind of music is that it’s a guilty pleasure… it’s fun to talk smack. And music, and entertainment (what all of this is primarily created for) is supposed to be fun! So stop taking it all so seriously for a second, pop a bottle of Cris and drop it like it’s hot…. Then roll on some dubs….. you know you want to….

Question 4: Which has the bigger fan base?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):


House has a huge fan base internationally and in cities like New York and Chicago, but the scenes are relatively closed off to the rest of the public. Most people from Boston or Houston don't even know what House music is let alone where to buy it or see a live show.

The music just isn't made accessible to the American public in the same way that hip-hop is. Internationally speaking, House may have a wider fan base, but American culture has not followed suit.

Emily Tan (Dance):

Avalon in Boston is often included on tour itineraries of Deep Dish, John Digweed, Paul Oakenfold, Paul Van Dyk, Hernan Cattaneo, Sander Kleinenberg and their peers. You’re assertion that "most people" outside of New York or Chicago "don't even know what house music is, let alone where to buy it or see a live show" is completely incorrect.

In fact, dance music "nights" and DJs are often booked on select nights at clubs which otherwise feature hip-hop, R&B or live rock bands. Dance music CDs, clubs and DJs are as easy to locate as a few clicks on Google, and if you've ever seen an action film like Speed, Mission Impossible, The Matrix, Charlie's Angels or Kill Bill, I've got news for you: you've been paying money to listen to electronic dance music, even though you may not have realized it. If you've seen any "chase" scene in any action-packed thriller playing in theaters today, chances are you've been listening to a track or score composed by a dance music artist. Surprise!

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Take it from someone who has been to House nights at Avalon in Boston, that the clubs are not packed, and even if they are, 75% of the crowd is comprised of international students studying abroad. Your average local Bostonian has no idea who Deep Dish and John Digweed are, and although they may very well enjoy these DJs presence in commercials and soundtracks, it's not an active interest. They don't bother to know what it is they're listening to and they don't pursue an interest in electronic music because they enjoyed the background music in the car chase... It may be sad that people enjoy music so ignorantly, but despite its presence in pop-culture, most Americans are still most definitely ignorant about EDM.

Emily Tan (Dance):


Sirius Satellite Radio is changing the face of radio, and dance music will soon no longer be the 'underground' genre of music. The blame for the fact that "American culture" has not broadly embraced dance music can only be laid upon conglomerates like Clear Channel Entertainment, the monolith that owns over 1,200 radio stations in the U.S. -- a virtual monopoly -- whose radio programming has become frighteningly homogenized because local programmers no longer have any influence over music programming in their markets.

Question 5: Which has the most talented DJs?

Emily Tan (Dance):

This is an over-generalized question. Today versus a decade ago? Many of the most talented dance music DJs -- Carl Cox, Bad Boy Bill, DJ Boris, Ivano Bellini, DJ Irene, Jeff Mills, Sasha, Timo Maas, Richie Hawtin, Sander Kleinenberg, Paul Van Dyk, Hernan Cattaneo, Satoshi Tomiie, Nick Warren, Danny Howells, Danny Tenaglia, Erick Morillo, many others -- incorporate music from all different genres into their sets and that's part of what makes them great.

The best, most innovative and forward-thinking dance music DJs incorporate, tweak, re-edit and otherwise manipulate jazz, hip hop, alternative rock, classical, Latin, punk, cinematic or "film soundtrack" music and other types of sounds into their live club sets and mixes. Yet, those sets are generally categorized as "house" or "techno" or "trance." The best hip-hop DJs excelled in the past (Grandmaster Flash, Dr. Dre, Jam Master Jay of Run DMC, Kool Herc -- Herc being one of the originators of hip hop in the Bronx), before the schools of hip hop and dance became as widely separated as they are today.

Turntablists are technically-hip hop, and they're pretty creative.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

This is an impossible question. A good DJ is a good DJ, no matter what kind of music he or she is spinning, and to spin each kind of music takes different skills, and techniques, that I don’t think can be compared as one being “harder” or “better” than another.

Scratching, I guess is the only mixing technique unique and original to hip-hop, but I would bet that some electronic DJs probably experiment with it too. There are amazing hip-hop DJs that don't get the credit they deserve because of the tendency to focus on the emcee, like Grandmaster Flash, Premiere, and JS-One, who was awarded a place in the Guinness Book of World records as the fastest DJ ever recorded. But any DJ that plays anything hot, and keeps the crowd up, happy, and moving is a good DJ. And there are examples of guys that can do that in any genre.

Question 6: Which is more conducive for mixing?

Emily Tan (Dance):

For a skilled DJ, the source material is irrelevant. Both dance music and hip hop can be mixed well, depending on the DJ. Take a look at Birdy Nam Nam, the 2002 DMC World Champions and performers at this year's International DJ Expo in Atlantic City, NJ.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

I agree. Mixing is a skill, and necessary, no matter what the material is. A good DJ can mix anything, it shouldn’t matter.

Question 7: Which moves the crowd more?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

House music most certainly moves a crowd and allows people to really feel connected with the music, but House music can be alienating to some fans. If one is familiar with House, one can be moved, but a lot of people are intimidated by music they don't know the words to.

Hip-Hop, because it has become such a familiar genre, makes people comfortable enough to dance. The pounding bass lines typically make dancing to the beat relatively simple, and thus people are more inclined to do it. I would wager to say that "real" House fans are more moved by their music more than your average hip-hop fan and dance more whole heartedly, but dancing to rap music is undoubtedly easier and thus more popular.

Emily Tan (Dance):

A visit to the Ibiza clubs of Pacha, Space, Café Mambo, DC-10, Privilege or Amnesia reveals tens-of-thousands of music fans of all nationalities dancing day and night, indoors and outdoors with their hands raised-in-the-air and with abandon to dance music played by the world's most skilled house, techno, trance and breaks DJs. All the while, the DJs are connecting and communicating with their crowds without having to speak one word of each other's language.

If you want to know whether house or hip-hop moves a crowd more, ask yourself why the small side-room of New York City superclub Crobar features hip-hop, while the massive main room is reserved for big New York and global house, techno and trance DJs.

How many "hip-hop superclubs" can you name in New York? I don't mean small bars or lounges that play hip-hop, I mean actual superclubs housing 2,000 people or more at one time with sound and lighting systems to match. How many superclubs can you name that play exclusively hip-hop? I can't think of any.

Question 8: Which makes better use of "old school" technology?

Emily Tan (Dance):

If you consider playing vinyl with Technics SL-1200 series turntables to be "old school," many dance music DJs (Danny Howells) still play predominantly vinyl. Old-school is fine, but forward-thinking dance music DJs have actually affected the evolution and development of DJ-related technology and gear: Richie Hawtin and John Acquaviva (Final Scratch), Richie Hawtin (Allen & Heath's CTRL mixers), Sasha (M-Audio's Maven controller for Ableton Live).

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Both electronic DJs and hip-hop DJs pretty much the last people on earth who still appreciate and make great use of vinyl. But both are starting to come into the new millennium and are beginning to use laptop computers to mix their sets. I think electronic DJs (by the pure nature of the genre), are jumping on the technological bandwagon a little faster than the hip-hop guys, but eventually, it’s sad to say, vinyl will probably be a museum worthy historical relic.

There’s something so pure and fresh about a real record that I feel is the trademark and essence of a DJ, hip-hop or electronic, but times are a changing, and technology brings a whole new realm of possibilities to a DJs repertoire.

Question 9: Which has had a greater influence on nightlife in the past decade?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

The influence of hip-hop over the past decade, especially the past few years, is undeniable. Hip-hop has gone from an underground niche to not only mainstream pop music, but pop culture.

Tonight, you could walk into any dance club in Kansas and probably find the DJ spinning Nelly and Ludacris and kids wearing baggy pants, chains, do-rags, and throwback jerseys. The specifically "hip-hop" clubs in more metropolitan cities are where fans have to go to find newer and more underground DJs and Emcees, but popular nightlife, popular music, popular culture, and youth culture (in America anyway) have all become synonymous with hip-hop culture over the course of the last decade.

Emily Tan (Dance):

See my earlier response. More popular does not equate better. No, you cannot walk into any DANCE CLUB in Kansas and find fashion-victims wearing do-rags, baggy pants and chains! What you can find is Paul Oakenfold playing to a packed crowd of enthusiastic kids who are interested in the skill of the DJ.

I'd argue that dance music has had the greater influence on nightlife in the past decade, if you're considering the entire world. Beyond the UK, the U.S. and Ibiza, the latest frontiers for dance music are Eastern Europe (especially Serbia and Croatia in the former Yugoslavia) and South America (especially Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela), places where those countries' dire political and economic conditions formerly made for inhospitable clubbing conditions.

A late-comer when compared to Tokyo, Beijing has embraced dance music and the global DJs who are its ambassadors, as the grip of Communism gradually loosens. Operators of Israel's club TLV in Tel Aviv -- after having learned to live with the constant threat of terrorist attacks -- have adjusted and subsequently implement a series of check-points and other safety measures for weekly patrons who will not stop coming to hear great dance music.

Question 10. Which DJs get more gigs?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

House music relies almost purely on the DJ, whereas hip-hop requires an Emcee, and more of a production crew. In its origin, hip-hop was born around the DJ, but as unfortunate as this may be, over the past few years, the form has come to revolve more around the Emcee.

Because of the popularity of hip-hop, I'm sure (though I have no actual research) that numbers would prove that there are more gigs for hip-hop DJs, but there are also more of them. Less is required of them than House DJs, so to be a House DJ is a more specialized and specific skill. The few individuals who are good at it probably get more work than the many individuals who are decent at spinning hip-hop. It's an issue of supply and demand.

Emily Tan (Dance):

Let's see, on the current leg of Sasha's Fundacion tour, his itinerary reads:

I'd say that dance music DJs (Sasha's known for progressive-house) get more gigs.

I'd agree that being successful as a house DJ requires more technical and "specialized" skill, as opposed to being a hip-hop DJ. Especially in New York, house music DJs are put under great scrutiny by house music trainspotters who are quick to criticize a dance music DJ if he is not inventive enough with his mixing skills or creative enough with his track-selection. Unlike hip-hop DJs who get rewarded by their crowds for repeating the same recognized tracks, dance music DJs get thrashed-upon if they (God forbid) play two of the same tracks in two consecutive sets.

Question 11: Totally subjective question. Which one is better to listen to on your iPod?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

I love putting everyday life to a great beat, and more importantly, when you listen to hip-hop alone and with headphones, as opposed to at a loud club or party, you can really pay attention to what the Emcee says, and really appreciate the beauty and poetry in some of the better hip-hop out there.

For me, and countless others, House is so much about the live experience. It's not just about the sound of the music, but about the DJ, the beautiful crowd, the energy, and most importantly--the dancing. Not that dancing isn't important to hip-hop, but House music is created to be a visceral experience made with the pure intention of dancing and moving. House in its most perfect form should be bone crushingly loud with flashing lights and flailing bodies. Hip-hop can be appreciated and enjoyed in a simpler form.

When listening to the little headphones on my iPod, I find it very hard to experience House music the way it's meant to be experienced. I don't see the point in listening to House if you can't dance, and sometimes that's hard to do at rush hour on the subway.

Emily Tan (Dance):

This is like asking someone which genre of music is better to listen to on the radio; it's completely a matter of personal taste. By the way, of the four 40-gig iPods that my boyfriend and I own, we listen to punk rock, alt-rock, death metal, jazz, classical, Southern rock, Philadelphia soul…and techno, house, trance and breaks, depending on our mood, the time of day, and how hung-over we are from the night before.

Again here, I agree with your comment describing house music as being about the live, visceral experience. House and dance music in general can also be intellectual and musically sophisticated, depending on the DJ or producer. Indeed, one reason that I enjoy listening to the music of Ferry Corsten, Armin Van Buuren, Ivano Bellini, Paul Van Dyk and Boris on an iPod so much, is that their recorded music stirs-up memories and emotions recently experienced at their live shows.

When I listen to an Oakey or Hernan Cattaneo recorded set on headphones, the images of friends' smiling faces come to mind. With great dance music however, it's not enough that the music is "bone-crushingly loud"; the music should ideally be crystal-clear, powerful, and all-encompassing as with a custom, 3-way cross-over for the front-of-house provided by acoustically-tailored, custom-made speakers.

Question 12: Which is better for a private party? For a mega-party?

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

There's nothing better than hip-hop for a private party. It puts a beat to the entire evening, puts everyone on the same rhythm and just brings a cool, chilled out, and relaxing vibe to any room. The consistent bass lines act as a heartbeat for the party, and keep it at a pace.

For a mega-party, either works depending on your crowd. If you've got a savvy, pseudo-international, drug friendly group, nothing will get everyone sweating and bouncing like House. But for a more generally American, beer pounding, "I wanna grab some girls ass tonight" party, good old-fashioned mainstream hip-hop never fails to get everyone up and grinding.

Emily Tan (Dance):

Beer-swilling Americans looking to "grab some girl's ass tonight" can stay the hell away from me, thank you very much. This is again a totally subjective question. The best time I had at WMC 2004 was aboard Sasha and Global Underground's private yacht cruise -- not the massive booze-cruise to which promoters sold tickets the following day -- I mean the private cruise for invited guests-only.

This year at WMC 2005, the best times I experienced were: 1) As a guest at Paul Van Dyk's private afternoon cocktail and double-decker "bus cruise" veering through the streets of downtown Miami while listening to PVD preview tracks from his latest CD, Politics of Dancing 2; 2) 2manyDJs, James Murphy of LCD Soundsystem, Tiga, DJ Hell and Felix Da Housecat playing at the Pawn Shop in downtown Miami, with a surprise guest-emcee appearance by Diddy during Felix's set; 3) A champagne-soaked, hilarious lunch with Danny Howells at an outdoor café on Ocean Drive during one of Miami's tropical thunderstorms; 4) Gabriel & Dresden, Tom Holkenborg of Junkie XL and Fatboy Slim at Crobar.

Soaring, epic dance music is best experienced at vast locations filled with thousands of like-minded clubbers -- be they outdoor raves, superclubs or arenas -- and so logic would dictate that electronic dance music is better suited for "mega" parties as opposed to more intimate, "private" parties.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Well, for those of us who weren't invited to Paul Van Dyk's "private afternoon cocktail" party or Sasha and Global Underground's "private yacht cruise," being just one of the masses who spent all their money just getting down to Miami for a chance to hear people like Paul Van Dyk and Sasha was pretty freakin' sweet. I'm sure your "champagne-soaked lunch" was fabulous, but so was being sweat and cheap beer-soaked at ULTRA.

Question 13: Which will be stronger in five years?

Emily Tan (Dance):

With the rapid ascent of satellite radio and the advance of online paying music stores like iTunes and with the popularity of iPod, the better question might be, "Which will be better in quality in five years?"

With music selection no longer being dictated solely by media monoliths like Clear Channel -- the company largely to blame for the homogenization of this country's broadcast radio -- it stands to be seen whether dance or hip hop will be "stronger" in five years. Moby started as a dance DJ and is now a household name. Paul Van Dyk stars in Motorola commercials, and music by Basement Jaxx, Ming & FS, Fatboy Slim and other dance music producers are heard frequently on TV and in film.

Early hip hop was dance music, before the "house" sub-genre evolved and before the chasm between "dance" and "hip hop" widened to current proportions.

Listening to early hip hop/dance music like Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" and witnessing Diddy and Missy Elliott's forays into electronic dance music, we might think that "dance" and "hip hop" aren't that far apart, after all.

Lauren Saft (Hip-Hop):

Well, I also agree!

With the emergence of satellite radio, all these definite groupings of music are soon to go out the window. There will be much more room for newer and more experimental artists willing to blur genres, and create hybrids of what popular radio forced us to compartmentalize as “hip-hop,” “electronic,” “easy listening,” and every other genre that was assigned it’s title and place under the umbrella of “music.”

The future of music lies in options, and access to kinds of music that may not have been as accessible in the past. I think that electronic music is definitely on the rise, and because hip-hop is SO huge right now, it’s inevitable that the bubble will burst to make room for a new craze.

But hopefully, the future of music will change the need for one type of music to dominate pop culture and have to bring itself to appeal to the lowest common denominator to turn a profit. Hopefully, now there will be room and opportunity for everyone to choose what they like, and artists of all genres will be freer to raise their standard of music and be able to present it to a public more open to something they might not have heard before.