X4v13r wrote:

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not sure what is going on here but it looks lilke is going to get good X@vier

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For once, I'm not on the defence!!!  YES!!!! 

bistor wrote:

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. Schugurensky and Bernhard, "hispanic" authorities on the matter. Oh yes. Jewish? Hell no. Whatever was I thinking? Aaaanyways. I Do you care to explain your comment? What needs to be explained? How many hispanics called Schugurensky and Bernhard do you know? These are authorities on what it's like to be hispanic, and the reasons behind the supposed educational failure of the community?

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A few points:

1. Do I need to point out that you can be jewish and latino, muslim and latino, just as you could be catholic an latino? (Smacks of profound ignorance)

2. Dismissal of expertise because of religious affiliation is absurd

3. Many names that appear to be jewish are not necessarily jewish. I’ve met a few who are catholic or other religions.

4. Your pretty quick to point out a jewish sounding name. You must have quite the radar or are very sensitive to it. What are you afraid of?

bistor wrote:

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 What a retarded article. One only finds this crap in "newspapers" such as the Toronto Sun and Toronto Star.

Although I'm GlobeandMail/New York Times affectionado, The toronto star is not crap newspaper and no one I know who's a news/media junkie would ever group the star together with the sun.

Schugurensky and Bernhard, "hispanic" authorities on the matter. Oh yes. Jewish? Hell no. Whatever was I thinking? Aaaanyways. I

Do you care to explain your comment?

t's true hispanics are underrepresented today in post secondary education, just as Italians were underrepresented 50 years ago.

I think you have misinterpreted the article. Relative to other immigrants(including or not including the Italians), hispanic children are doing badly. That would also be inclusive of other comparatively new groups.  

 

All valid points.
Although i agree with everyone on this topic, I seem to agree a bit more with Bistor and his theory of "new immigrant ethnicities".
To me all these symptoms reflect exactly something that has already occured in immigration matters. New immigrant ethnicities
(in general, exceptions are obvious) arrive at the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid, thus pushing up the second newest immigrant ethnicity.
With time, these groups establish support organizations, programs, and even informal networks that prevent the new immigrants to struggle as much as their predecessors did. It is here where institutions like the church are crucial to tame the struggle a new immigrant has to go through.
I see the same symptoms even in Chile, where the Peruvian wave of immigrants filled the lowest paid jobs in Chile, but with time they have organized themselves, and a new Peruvian immigrant can reach organizations created specifically to find him/her a (better) job in Chile.

I'm sure with time, some credentials will be more easily recognized, and improvements of the like will happen. The latino immigrants are new compared to the Italians or Greeks for example.

Dropout, failure rates linked to language
Study compares countries of origin
Spanish-speaking parents worried
Jun. 23, 2006. 05:12 AM
LOUISE BROWN
EDUCATION REPORTER

Toronto teens born in the Caribbean, Central or South America and east Africa are twice as likely to drop out of school as their peers from China, Korea and Japan, new research shows.

The first study to track Toronto high school students through Ontario's new four-year curriculum also shows that students who speak Spanish, Portuguese or Somali are at higher risk than kids who speak any other of the city's most common languages.

And they are more likely to fail Grade 9 math and flunk the Grade 10 literacy test, and are less likely to apply to college or university.

"We live in an unequal society where education is supposed to be the great equalizer, so if it's not doing that, we have to figure out why," said education professor Daniel Schugurensky, adding he is the only Hispanic professor at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (OISE) at the University of Toronto.

He is one of about 20 members of the new Spanish Speaking Education Network, formed by parents and educators, that gathered this week to discuss the alarming new data about Toronto's 5,300 Spanish-speaking students. The network was created to figure out why the community's children fare so poorly, and it has called an emergency conference in September to brainstorm solutions.

For Canada's largest, most diverse school board, this is exactly the kind of detail schools need to be able to pinpoint where help is most needed, said education director Gerry Connelly.

And it is the first step in the Toronto District School Board's growing move to gather as much demographic data on students as possible — with the next step coming this fall, when the board begins gathering controversial race-based statistics on students through a voluntary student survey.

Parents in each of these communities say their children face daunting roadblocks to learning — from poverty, instability and the trauma of having lived through war, to a lack of savvy about formal education and even family breakdown — for which they need more help than they are getting.

"The gap in learning has nothing to do with any group's innate ability, and everything to do with a child's access at home to books and culture and ideas and travel — all the cultural capital that stimulates learning," Connelly said, adding the board already steers more teachers and special resources to schools in low-income neighbourhoods to help bridge the gap.

"I reject the idea that any child is trapped by their situation," said board chair Sheila Ward. "There is lots we can do to give kids a hands-up if we put a laser beam on the problem."

Spanish-speaking parents agree.

"We know students are not dropping out just because they're Latino — there's a complex mix of reasons," said Luz Bascunan, an education advocate with the Catholic Children's Aid Society of Toronto.

"Some come from South and Central American countries that are not as affluent or where there is not as much access to formal education. Or maybe their parents' credentials are not recognized here, so they cannot work in their profession. Or sometimes they come from countries that don't encourage parents to be involved in the school system," she said.

"And remember, in the last few years schools cut back on supports to these communities. So we need a lot — more role models, more Spanish-speaking teachers, more ESL. There isn't one simple solution."

It is the same demand being made by Somali, Caribbean and Portuguese parents — more sensitivity to their children's often turbulent background, more inclusive curriculum, more teachers from their backgrounds, more outreach to help parents become comfortable with public schools.

"One 8-year-old boy from Somalia kept jumping under his desk at his school near the Toronto airport and the teacher thought he had a behaviour problem. But it turns out he fell to the ground every time he heard an airplane because he had seen his father killed in Somalia in a helicopter attack," said Somali mother Suad Aimad, co-founder of Somali Parents for Education.

The Toronto District School Board began tracking all 18,400 students entering Grade 9 in 2000, the first year after Grade 13 was abolished, in a bid to pinpoint which students struggle most with the new curriculum. Five years later, 60 per cent had graduated, 12 per cent had switched to a different school system, 7 per cent were still enrolled in high school and 21 per cent had dropped out. The emerging profile of these dropouts is largely teenaged boys living in Toronto's so-called "horseshoe of poverty." Of students born in English-speaking islands in the Caribbean who started Grade 9 in 2000, 40 per cent had dropped out by 2005. Of those born in Central or South America, 37 per cent had dropped out. Of those born in southern and western Europe, 35 per cent had dropped out, while 32 per cent of those from eastern Africa had dropped out.

In contrast, of students born in east Asia, 14 per cent had dropped out, and of children born in Canada, 23 per cent stopped going to school.

Why do students from some cultural backgrounds need more support? Why Spanish, for example?

Ryerson University early-childhood professor Judith Bernhard, who is Hispanic, suggests Spanish-speaking immigrants may have pushed their children so hard to blend into mainstream Canada that they lost the sense of cultural pride now known to be key to learning.

"We have to counter the Latino stereotypes — the gangs, the tough guys — and develop a sense of pride in their identity. And we have to start with early-childhood education," she said.

To Hispanic community worker Gaby Motta, a mother of two, Canada's public schools still steer too many Spanish-speaking students away from higher learning, something Portuguese-Canadian school trustee Maria Rodrigues believes is the same for her community.

"There's still a little discrimination in our system; teachers still don't expect as much of students who don't speak English as a first language.

"When the wave of Portuguese immigrants came to this country, most were labourers and farmers who were not educated beyond elementary school, and they didn't see not having a formal education as a bad thing," said Rodrigues, who was the first in her family to go to university.

"So we need a lot more community outreach to help Portuguese parents understand the ins and outs of the school system."

Somali mother Suad Aimad said she has seen first-hand the payoff of being involved in her children's education by showing interest in school, helping with homework, volunteering in class.

"With my oldest, I didn't understand this, but now with my younger children I do — and they're all doing excellent."

SO THE STUDY WAS DONE TAKING DATA FROM STUDENTS WHO WERE BORN IN SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA,. WHAT ABOUT WITH KIDS WHO WERE BORN HERE BUT WITH HIPANIC BACKGROUND???? I GUESS THEY ARE CONSIDERED CANADIAN,..

I REALLY THINK THAT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM HERE IN CANADA IS VERY POOR IN THE ACADEMIC CURRICULM,.. IF THESE RESEARCH SHOWS WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING, IT IS VERY SAD,.. BUT PARENTS HAVE A BIG PORCENTAGE OF CULPABILITY IN WHAT HAPPENS WITH OUR STUDENTS. THE EARLY-CHILDHOOD EDUCATION COMES FROM HOME,.. EVEN IF THERE IS NOT TIME ,. I AM A BELIVER ON QUALITY TIME INSTEAD OF QUANTITIVE,. BESIDES THE IMPORTANCE ABOUT EDUCATION IN OUR CULTURE IS VERY HIGH IN COMPARISON WITH OTHER CULTURES.

DESCRIMINATION FROM TEACHERS IS ALSO A ISSUE IN SCHOOLS,. I HAVE SEEN THAT SOMETIMES BECAUSE A STUDENT IS HISPANIC HE/SHE HAS A LABEL ON,. (GANG MEMBER,. BAD BEHAVIOUR ETC.),.. AND THEY TRIED TO PUT THEM DOWN,. EVEN WHEN THE STUDENT WAS BORN IN CANADA,. MY FAMILY HAS GONE THROUGH THAT,. I DID MY HIGHSCHOLL IN ECUADOR SO I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE SYSTEM HERE IN CANADA FIRST HAND,. BUT I HAVE BEEN WITNESS OF THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON WITH THE HISPANIC STUDENTS,..

ABOUT ROLE MODELS,. THERE IS PLENTY OF GOOD ROLE MODELS,.JUST LOOK AROUND TH FORO,..BESIDES THAT RESEARCH ONLY SHOW ONE FACE OF THE COIN,.WHAT HAPPEN WITH THOSE HISPANICS WHO ARE PERSUING A UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE EDUCATION,. THOSE WHO EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE A POST -GRADUATED EDUCATION,. HAVE A GOOD JOB,. AND ARE EXAMPLE FOR THE CANADIAN SOCIETY,. WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT ARE GETTING HIGH SCHOOL CREDITS,. BECAUSE THEY DROPPED OUT IN THEIR TEENS,..THOSE ARE GOOD ROLE MODELS,. FOR THE STUDENTS OF ANY BACKGROUND,.

AND ABOUT THE ONLY HISPANIC TEACHERS,. I KNOW SOME HISPANIC TEACHERS IN THE PUBLIC/CATHOLIC SCHOOL BOARD,. FACILITADORS IN THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO,. AND PEOPLE WHO IS DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THE EDUCATION SYSTEM,..

BEIDES I AGREE WITH TORONTOTRUCHO.

 I've seen these situation with my own eyes. I went to a public adult education collegiate for a year and a half, I took some high school credits because I wanted to brush up whatever I learned back home.  I found it strange that students here get so much help, they are given books, chemistry labs have lots of materials (back home lab was closed since authoities worried about students learning weapon fabrication).  Here they have so many things that can help learn, photocopies are available everywhere; and yet some latinos kids didn't take education seriously.  They probably think that in the long run it won't matter, I noticed that students from other back grounds were more serius about school.

But on the other hand,there were latino students who were also working to support their relatives here or in their countries of origins.  Students from other backgrounds don't have to worry about situations like these and live less stressful lives.

 The Toronto Star should also investigate about the income most of these "drop outs" earn, let's say five years after school.  I'm sure portuguese kids end up making very decent incomes eventhough they "sucked" at school. The same applies to some latinos.

There was a  latino kid who I used to feel pity for; several years later I met him and he told me he was a contractor  ( construction job ) and has bought a house which he rents.  When he told me that I was relieved, and was glad he ended up being a succesful man.

I think latino kids should learn how to have fun, but also be responsible in school, even if they want to try another path later in life. 

 En lugar de tener dos novelas en Telelatino, deberian poner una novela y otro tipo de programa.

Quitaron el programa de interes social de Mario Bianchi y ponen programas de la farandula de Miami que dura como media hora; mientras que a Bianqui le daban unos ridiculos segundos.

Si se sigue con esta actitud solo daremos el mensaje a los muchachos que la diversion esta ante todo.  Ellos lo pagaran en el futuro.

-- Edited by torontotrucho at 00:55, 2006-06-24

OK, maybe not the CIA.

I don't know. We are largely influenced by what we see around us. Hispanic inmigration has traditionally been blue-collar. Is this a bad thing? I would say, no. It follows the same pattern as the italian, portuguese or greek inmigration that preceeded it.

The southern european inmigrants that established themselves in Canada have been quite successful. The children of these inmigrants, after a generation or two end up being university/college educated. Things work out.

As far as I'm concerned, although we should pay attention to these studies, it's probably not as bad as it looks.

Bainaman wrote:

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Do you think that music and what I've labeled the "Yo! Yo!" generation have anything to do with it?? Every kid now a days is a self proclaimed entrepreneur. Ultimately, they're just Jack's of all trades, masters of none!  

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It seems every one is after easy money. Nobody wants to work for it and they want it now. TV is costantly showing examples of ordinary people who make it big without much effort. You know, realtity shows, American idol, rap stars who get shot/jailed and sell a million cds.

Do you think that music and what I've labeled the "Yo! Yo!" generation have anything to do with it??

Every kid now a days is a self proclaimed entrepreneur.

Ultimately, they're just Jack's of all trades, masters of none!

 

@bainaman

Panama seems to be like most Hispanic countries in their value of education. I have met quite few highly educated Panamanians in my travels.

I wish I knew why so many of us our doing so poorly in school. I know with all my cousins in Chile, school is your main focus. Your only job as a child is to succeed in school even if it means at times just to finish school. The poor people in the streets were constant reminders of what would happen to you if you didn't complete school. You would really have to struggle to get by without a decent education.

Here in Canada, you can still do well without a higher education. There are jobs that pay well without requiring post secondary education. Perhaps this is what they see. If they quit school and work they can have a fancy car, clothes, "bling", etc, by the time they are 22. (although they probably live in their parents house still). You could never have all that if you quit school in Chile or most other Latin American countries.

 

Hey Neruda... why do you say "I told you so" -- seems like it has a negative connotation or may I'm just reading it incorrectly?

It is pretty sad, tho.

 

Thanks for the info.

Truely sad.

Neruda: I forget your original "fall from the stupid tree" thread....But do your opinions also include the education the Spanish kids receive in South/Central America??

I find that in Panama (can't speak of any other country from first hand knowledge) the kids and people in general pride themselves on their education. You almost NEVER hear of anyone dropping out of school or without some type of University degree. If you do hear of it, it's sooo looked down upon. Here it seems to be the norm.