TV Buff wrote:

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Marky Mark wrote: what did the american gov do to the chileans that day? Oh, no, you've just opened up Pandora's Box.

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bistor wrote:

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   Indeed... we see eye to eye then. Every people has the government they deserve.      

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Not true!

A regime that has taken control by force and represses any sort of opposition is not a government of the people. Thus it follows the people of chile did not deserve the Pinochet dictatorship.

neruda wrote:

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@Chilenita: Look, I'm not saying Chileans should have taken up arms. They probably would have lost against the military and solidified the right wing agenda. Thisi is a whole different discourse. Secondly, oncea gain I accept that the USA via the CIA helped in the coup. My argument is that it was chileans who did the acts, they were not forced to by the US. Secondly for the next fifteen years during the brutal pinochet regime- it was  members (chliean!) of the military and DINA would did the torturing and killiing. Washington had very little or no say in these matters. In fact they (the USA)were quite upset with the assination of a Chilean in the USA. They, the USA, were not running the show after '73. It was chileans!  

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Okay what the hell are we even arguing about!!!  LISTEN or READ....I am not saying that there are not Chileans that should be blamed....all of the members of la DINA were CHILEAN....the military was CHILEAN...ruled by CHILEANS.....losers supporting Pinochet from within CHILE were CHILEAN....I FUCKING get that part but what I am saying is this...THEY DID NOT COME UP WITH THE PLAN......THEY DID NOT HAVE THE FUNDS......WITHOUT THE HELP OF RICHARD NIXON AND HIS CIA PINOCHET THE MENTAL RETARD WOULD NEVER HAVE PULLED THIS OFF!!!!!  Get it?????  I am not saying that there are not Chileans to blame that is FUCKING obvious to ANYONE.....Americans could not do the killing themselves...well they try not to do the killing themselves when there are MENTAL RETARDS that will do it for them!!!!  We agree that there are PLENTY of Chileans to blame that is obvious!!!!!

BUT as you yourself FINALLY pointed out the left wing Chileans (who were not even united) would have lost....they would have all died!!!  Many of them did!!!!  There was nothing they could do because the military was incredibly organized and they acted very fast!! It would have been certain death...it was certain death and I resent anyone who tries to say that Chileans just sat back and let everything happened because that is just not true I am the daughter of a man who did not sit back! Someone who did everything he could short of dying for his cause!! Someone who although forced into excile continued to fight to help his people and someone who still does it to this day!!

@Chilenita:

Look, I'm not saying Chileans should have taken up arms. They probably would have lost against the military and solidified the right wing agenda. Thisi is a whole different discourse.

Secondly, oncea gain I accept that the USA via the CIA helped in the coup. My argument is that it was chileans who did the acts, they were not forced to by the US. Secondly for the next fifteen years during the brutal pinochet regime- it was  members (chliean!) of the military and DINA would did the torturing and killiing. Washington had very little or no say in these matters. In fact they (the USA)were quite upset with the assination of a Chilean in the USA. They, the USA, were not running the show after '73. It was chileans!  

El Duro wrote:

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neruda wrote: @el Duro: "You know what bro your right.. his just an ingronat bastard" This a classic quote!   Looks like someone is a big man over a computer... I'm thinking are u a really a big man in person?

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bistor wrote:

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Chilenita wrote:   Who should be blame the killing in Iraq on? To the people doing the killing, I suppose.

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Oh so I guess that is one thing you don't mind us blaming on Americans then.......

Do you think Pinochet gave up power because he got bored of being President? 

Chilenita wrote:

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  Who should be blame the killing in Iraq on?

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To the people doing the killing, I suppose.

Chilenita wrote:

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bistor wrote: McOSIRIS wrote: bistor wrote: Whether he arrived to power via a coup or through elections is not relevant. If the people truly did not want him, they would have rebelled. And frankly, they didn't. While Chileans did not vote for Pinochet, overall (yes, there were exceptions), they didn't do very much to remove him from power. Even though the human rights abuses were known by everybody. It wasn't the CIA that was torturing Chileans. It was fellow Chileans. To take responsability for ones own government is maturity. To blame everyone else but yourselves is a good way for the same mistakes to be repeated in the future. people did....and most of them are 6 feet under or missing.... I recognized there were exceptions... there just wasn't nearly the opposition to dictatorship that there was, for example, in some of central american countries. I just think it's ridiculous to be blaming the americans for all the woes of the world. One should take responsability for oneself. And no, I'm not american :).   Who should be blame the killing in Iraq on?

 

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THE USA

McOSIRIS wrote:

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bistor wrote: Whether he arrived to power via a coup or through elections is not relevant. If the people truly did not want him, they would have rebelled. And frankly, they didn't. While Chileans did not vote for Pinochet, overall (yes, there were exceptions), they didn't do very much to remove him from power. Even though the human rights abuses were known by everybody. It wasn't the CIA that was torturing Chileans. It was fellow Chileans. To take responsability for ones own government is maturity. To blame everyone else but yourselves is a good way for the same mistakes to be repeated in the future. people did....and most of them are 6 feet under or missing....

Sounds like Neruda's evil twin or him registered as another member either way we don't agree on anything!

BIstor...are you even Chilean? If so BRAVE one what would you have done to save the day?  How dare you say Chileans did not fight back...there are many many many Chileans that did they just aren't alive any more to tell you about it!!

bistor wrote:

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Whether he arrived to power via a coup or through elections is not relevant. If the people truly did not want him, they would have rebelled. And frankly, they didn't. While Chileans did not vote for Pinochet, overall (yes, there were exceptions), they didn't do very much to remove him from power. Even though the human rights abuses were known by everybody. It wasn't the CIA that was torturing Chileans. It was fellow Chileans. To take responsability for ones own government is maturity. To blame everyone else but yourselves is a good way for the same mistakes to be repeated in the future.

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bistor wrote:

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Chilenita wrote: bistor wrote: Not to add any gasoline to the fire, but... Although there is little doubt the CIA financed the coup, the ones that executed it were chilean, and today there are plenty of people in Chile that support Pinochet (as odd as that might sound in a democracy like Canada's). To not accept responsability as a nation for one's own government isn't terribly mature. Pinochet was a product of Chile, not Cambodia. Alrighty but NOBODY is saying that Chileans are not to blame I am saying it would NOT have been possible without the help of the CIA. Of course there are people that support Pinochet....there are plenty of idiots all over the world that support what he did just like there are idiots that support Bush and Harper...etc...   Indeed... we see eye to eye then. Every people has the government they deserve.      

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I don't think we agree.  I don't think Chileans deserved Pinochet....they voted in Allende democratically.....he was murdered...military coup....

VERY DIFFERENT than a bunch of stupid Americans voting in a mass murderer......

Get me now!!

bistor wrote:

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Not to add any gasoline to the fire, but... Although there is little doubt the CIA financed the coup, the ones that executed it were chilean, and today there are plenty of people in Chile that support Pinochet (as odd as that might sound in a democracy like Canada's). To not accept responsability as a nation for one's own government isn't terribly mature. Pinochet was a product of Chile, not Cambodia.

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Alrighty but NOBODY is saying that Chileans are not to blame

I am saying it would NOT have been possible without the help of the CIA.

Of course there are people that support Pinochet....there are plenty of idiots all over the world that support what he did just like there are idiots that support Bush and Harper...etc...

McOSIRIS wrote:

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neruda wrote:  @Mcsoris - cheap shots only make you look bad (al la McSorley and Bertuzzi)   http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/ http://foia.state.gov/SearchColls/CIA.asp http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/ algo mas???     PD.... aweonao.....

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neruda wrote:

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 @Mcsoris - cheap shots only make you look bad (al la McSorley and Bertuzzi)  

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http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

http://foia.state.gov/SearchColls/CIA.asp

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/

algo mas???

PD.... aweonao.....

Daeveed wrote:

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Tu vision del golpe militar y del regimen militar estan demasiado distorsionadas. Quizas es por el tipo de personas con las que te has codeado, o el tipo de literatura que has leido, la cual asumo que ha sido mayoritariamente en ingles, ya que dudo que sepas hablar español. Has leido el Informe Retig? Sabes quien fue Michael Townley? El hecho de que digas que los soldados son responsables porque no se rehusaran a acatar ordenes excepto si se les asesinaba, es ridicula. Como ya dije, y aparentemente nadie te ha dicho esto antes, estos soldados no se rehusaban, solo seguian ordenes ciegamente. Tu pides por documentacion, entonces yo te pido documentacion acerca de que paso a los soldados que se rehusaron. No puedo seguir discutiendo contigo, si tu vision de las cosas esta tan distorsionada que incluso te basas en los principios de Nuremberg...tu crees que al gobierno de Pinochet y al de Nixon le importo algo los tratados o los codigos??? por favor, no seas ingenuo.-- Edited by Daeveed at 11:43, 2006-02-17

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You're never goingto win an argument if you base it slowly on conjecture, speculation and personal attacks. Try interspersing your speeches with facts, you just might convince someone of something. So far from your argument I've identified a number of errors:

AD HOMINEM ARGUMENTS

BEGGING (AVOIDING) THE QUESTION

neruda wrote:

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Daveed it always dangerous to leave your area of expertise. Perhaps you should stick with computers and weed. "I guess there's no point on trying to convince each other of anything." This posits that people are incapable of learning. I would highly disagree. "I don't understand why are you excluding Americans from their responsibility" See my response to chilenita. "pushed the button",  You said this not me. but you failed to mention those who "came up with the plan". Oddly enough, these people were the Americans, I don't know why you left them out. Maybe that way it was easier to prove your point?           Again see above. Keep your eye on the ball. Its not about the coup, its about the dictatorship. "Also you mentioned that lower ranked soldiers could have said no to the orders...well, if they were civilians... maybe, but it seems that you've neglected the fact that they are soldiers, and in case you weren't aware of it, soldiers are "trained" (i.e. brainwashed) for years to accept, and excecute orders coming from their superiors, strongly believing that they are absolutely the right thing to do." I'm not about to give a lecture on military law or justice but untill I see evidence that say chileans soldiers were killed for disobeying orders , every one from the bottom up is guilty. See Numerberg principles, (i think its number 4). You belief would undermine the judicial initiatives now under way in chile. Thank god you're not a lawyer for the victims.  -- Edited by neruda at 17:17, 2006-02-16

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Tu vision del golpe militar y del regimen militar estan demasiado distorsionadas. Quizas es por el tipo de personas con las que te has codeado, o el tipo de literatura que has leido, la cual asumo que ha sido mayoritariamente en ingles, ya que dudo que sepas hablar español. Has leido el Informe Retig? Sabes quien fue Michael Townley? El hecho de que digas que los soldados son responsables porque no se rehusaran a acatar ordenes excepto si se les asesinaba, es ridicula. Como ya dije, y aparentemente nadie te ha dicho esto antes, estos soldados no se rehusaban, solo seguian ordenes ciegamente. Tu pides por documentacion, entonces yo te pido documentacion acerca de que paso a los soldados que se rehusaron.

No puedo seguir discutiendo contigo, si tu vision de las cosas esta tan distorsionada que incluso te basas en los principios de Nuremberg...tu crees que al gobierno de Pinochet y al de Nixon le importo algo los tratados o los codigos??? por favor, no seas ingenuo.

DJAlonso wrote:

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I liked it, I thought it was entertaining and reminds of some questions that were left unanswered.  However, this is like reading a book, it is one person's perspective and one person's point of view and it should be taken for what it is worth. Now, I don't agree with a lot of the american politics but history shows that there is always someone in power, rather them in power then someone in another side of the world simply because I live in this side of the world. However, I would love to see Latin American countries rise eventually, which brings me to these questions? Who here is updated on the whole Chaves and the Bolivian guy stuff, and what are your thoughts?  I am asking because I have read some, but dont feel like I know enough to form an opinion, so maybe someone here wants to be constructive and give an update on whats going on, also since this seems to be the topic that will be affecting all our Latin countries in the near future. Its 4:30am, just came back from a gig, excuse me if this doesnt make sense. Happy Friday people!  -- Edited by DJAlonso at 04:36, 2006-02-17

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Ok now you got more of my attention.  So what exactly is going on? How will this affect all of our Latin countries?

OK.... I gave myself the time to watch this "documentary".......... I must say the I couldn't finish it....

from the cinematographic point of view... It lacks of information.... the first 10 minutes are all narrated...all the footage is from the internet (nothing written in paper)...no interviews..... so that gives me the heads up that is all scripted...

So as an expectator it left me wonder.... is this really a "Documentary" about what happpend??? or is something that the director of this "movie" wants us to believe?

as a film I give it... 1/2

se acuerdan del final de la pelicula

"the fight club"?

neruda wrote:

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El Duro wrote:   First of all facker I was born here and I didn't come on a boat like u.. and your a big men on a computer why dont u say it to me in my face You don't know what you speak of.

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Right...............................................

A$$hole:

neruda wrote:

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It was Chileans who arrested other Chileans. It was Chileans who tortured other Chileans. It was Chileans who took other Chileans in the middle of the night and set them on fire. Chileans refused to believe such atrocities were going on in their country. Or they justified it by believing there was a greater need for security. Chileans did it to themselves Kissinger and his policies have done much to cause instability in foreign countries but they didn't do the killing. Most of the Chileans killed tortured or exiled were from the lower classes. The reasons for the atrocities are rooted in a classism and racism endemic in Chilean society.   

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This guy is so lost whe it comes to Politics...I was gonna stay away from this one but seeing the ingorance in this statement I just cant...He is one of those poor people that cant see the reality behind politics...

El Duro wrote:

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  First of all facker I was born here and I didn't come on a boat like u.. and your a big men on a computer why dont u say it to me in my face

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Daeveed wrote:

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I guess there's no point on trying to convince each other of anything. You have your own vision of the events, almost exclusively from outside of the country, and I have mine, almost exclusively from within. You say the responsibility is everyone's, including Chileans, and I agree with that, but I don't understand why are you excluding Americans from their responsibility, nor do I want to. I believe in my opinion as you believe in yours, and that's ok. As "poor" as my analogy could have been according to you, in your reply you mentioned only those who "gave the orders" and those who "pushed the button", but you failed to mention those who "came up with the plan". Oddly enough, these people were the Americans, I don't know why you left them out. Maybe that way it was easier to prove your point? Also you mentioned that lower ranked soldiers could have said no to the orders...well, if they were civilians... maybe, but it seems that you've neglected the fact that they are soldiers, and in case you weren't aware of it, soldiers are "trained" (i.e. brainwashed) for years to accept, and excecute orders coming from their superiors, strongly believing that they are absolutely the right thing to do. So no, I don't think them, or the ones who gave the orders (Chileans) are the true cause for the coup. They are also responsible, but they are not the cause. That's my opinion.  

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Daveed it always dangerous to leave your area of expertise. Perhaps you should stick with computers and weed.

"I guess there's no point on trying to convince each other of anything." This posits that people are incapable of learning. I would highly disagree.

"I don't understand why are you excluding Americans from their responsibility" See my response to chilenita.

"pushed the button",  You said this not me.

but you failed to mention those who "came up with the plan". Oddly enough, these people were the Americans, I don't know why you left them out. Maybe that way it was easier to prove your point?           Again see above. Keep your eye on the ball. Its not about the coup, its about the dictatorship.

"Also you mentioned that lower ranked soldiers could have said no to the orders...well, if they were civilians... maybe, but it seems that you've neglected the fact that they are soldiers, and in case you weren't aware of it, soldiers are "trained" (i.e. brainwashed) for years to accept, and excecute orders coming from their superiors, strongly believing that they are absolutely the right thing to do."

I'm not about to give a lecture on military law or justice but untill I see evidence that say chileans soldiers were killed for disobeying orders , every one from the bottom up is guilty. See Numerberg principles, (i think its number 4). You belief would undermine the judicial initiatives now under way in chile. Thank god you're not a lawyer for the victims.