Kind of a stretch in the topic....but... @ Lahtina - Have you read "The Republic" by Plato ???
I've only read half of it and it was years ago. I don't know what happened to the book either. But I do want to read it complete, except that I'm reading like 3 others right now. I should spend less time on the forum and more time reading.
I realize this disussion is long over and we're not talking about it, Dogo but... just something interesting I found and thought I'd share.
Lawrence Kohlberg was, for many years, a professor at Harvard University. He became famous for his work there beginning in the early 1970s. He started as a developmental psychologist and then moved to the field of moral education. He was particularly well-known for his theory of moral development which he popularized through research studies conducted at Harvard's Center for Moral Education.
Kohlberg believed (and was able to demonstrate through studies) that people acquired their moral reasoning (i.e., in their bases for ethical behavior) through a series of stages and that individuals in all cultures went through them in the same order. Here's how he thought human moral development progressed:
Personally, I am beyond the idea of Good and Evil as eternal dichotomies. For me they are two Platonic concepts with no relation to each other. Or do you believe that there is not some sort of actual Heavenly or Hellish force influencing the object you are talking about?
Good and evil are subjective concepts invented by man based in the instinct for survival but have no true objective existence. Subjectively, however, good and evil are ways of describing our attitudes towards things. When we say something is evil, we mean not only that we don't like it but also that we think other people shouldn't like it either. We have placed this attribute on the object given the information we currently have. It's a judgment call.
To be sure, the ancient ideas of Good and Evil as forces have lead to untold human suffering and innumerable. "Holy Wars" anyone?
A thing or event is neither 'Good' nor 'Evil' in the purest sense, it just IS.
Wow Daeveed! I like this side of you! In regards to your comment... yes, I agree with you. People have a common notion of what good or bad is. However, depending on your environment, you develop a concept of what is acceptable in that community and what is not. Ex. stealing. Western society deems petty theft, as just that, petty. Whereas in other environments, such as lets say the tribesman example... they would deem theft as theft, no matter if its just a small item.
Chale_Tanga wrote: Everyone has a conscience. But peoples view of what is right/wrong may vary drastically. ex. A tribesman from a remote village deep in the jungles of godknowswhere has a different concept of what is right and wrong than that of a university educated business man from here. Both have an inner sense of right and wrong, but they vary drastically. Yes Chale, but I also think that no matter how different they are, there's always going to be a common set of instincts of 'good' and 'bad' for all.
Wow Daeveed! I like this side of you!
In regards to your comment... yes, I agree with you. People have a common notion of what good or bad is. However, depending on your environment, you develop a concept of what is acceptable in that community and what is not. Ex. stealing. Western society deems petty theft, as just that, petty. Whereas in other environments, such as lets say the tribesman example... they would deem theft as theft, no matter if its just a small item.
I think the "basic" notion of good vs. evil is innate and we all posses it instictevily. Different cultures/religions might make up their own "extended" notion of a "good" or "bad" but the basics are common (I'd like to think) to all human beings, the rest is just imposed upon us (religion, law, etc.) But if you don't follow the "basics" in your own context then, NO, you don't have a concience, at least not a very good one
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The opinions expressed by this poster should always be considered offensive to Guadalupipi.
Everyone has a conscience. But peoples view of what is right/wrong may vary drastically. ex. A tribesman from a remote village deep in the jungles of godknowswhere has a different concept of what is right and wrong than that of a university educated business man from here. Both have an inner sense of right and wrong, but they vary drastically.
Yes Chale, but I also think that no matter how different they are, there's always going to be a common set of instincts of 'good' and 'bad' for all.
IF SOMEONE DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND BAD OR RIGHT AND WRONG..... DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE A "CONSCIENCE"?
Everyone has a conscience. But peoples view of what is right/wrong may vary drastically.
ex. A tribesman from a remote village deep in the jungles of godknowswhere has a different concept of what is right and wrong than that of a university educated business man from here.
Both have an inner sense of right and wrong, but they vary drastically.
I do believe everybody learns what's 'good' and 'bad' from what they are taught during their lives. I want to stress that 'good' and 'bad' are relative and even volatile concepts. What's good for someone can be bad for someone else, and even more, I can consider something 'bad' and something/someone can change that perception and make me believe from now on that it is 'good'.
I also don't think a person can choose to ignore that. I think a person can choose whether they do the 'good' or the 'bad' thing (except maybe on insanity cases...right Baina?).
If a person loses that notion of what's 'good' or 'bad' socially, I believe there's still the instinct of preservation of the species that tells you for example that killing another human goes against the preservation (most of the time). so I truly believe there are different levels of conscience.
I believe there's first and foremost a "Human Conscience" that involves a person as an entity, and second a "Social Conscience" that involves a person as part of a society.
BY CONSCIENCE I MEAN.....THE GUILTY FEELING OF DOING SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.....WHICH IS THE RESULT OF KNOWING WHAT'S WRONG AND RIGHT...GOOD AND BAD.....(TAUGHT BY EITHER PARENTS OR SOCIETY)
DAEVEED YOU HAVE MADE SOME REALLY GOOD POINTS.....IT ONLY TOOK ME 2 DICTIONARIES, 3 ENCYCLOPEDIAS, SOME HAIR PULLING, NAIL BITING AND A COUPLE PHONE CALLS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU MEANT......LOL
I OPENED THIS TOPIC FOR SOME HEALTHY DISCUSSION.....BECUASE I DO BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE HAS A CONSCIENCE....ONLY SOME PEOPLE CHOOSE TO IGNORE IT....AND I WANNA KNOW WHY?....I'M REFERRING MAINLY TO CRIMINALS.....
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"To be a good Promoter you must have the heart of a Gambler and the mind of a Computer"
I think there are fundamental notions of human preservation that are intrinsically embedded in the human psyche, for the sake of the preservation of the species. I believe that if a person lacks that nothion, there's definetely something wrong there. Now, on the other hand, all the social and moral aspects of human behavior that have been labeled 'good' or 'bad' depending on the geographical location throughout the centuries, are not aspects of life we are bon with, and could be learned. But you pose the question of whether that person has a conscience or not. I think the answer will depend on what is your definition of conscience. If by conscience you mean the instincts I mentioned first, then the answer would be yes, that person does not have one and there's something wrong with her/him. If by conscience you mean the learned set of social rights and regulations, then the answer would be no, that person does have a conscience, but it's just different than yours. (US on Iraq anyone?) If by conscience you mean something else, please explain.
very good point.
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AB
.::El Amor No Es Para Todos::. : El Amor Comienza Con Una Mirada, Crece Con Un Beso Y Muere Con Una Lagrima.
I think there are fundamental notions of human preservation that are intrinsically embedded in the human psyche, for the sake of the preservation of the species. I believe that if a person lacks that nothion, there's definetely something wrong there.
Now, on the other hand, all the social and moral aspects of human behavior that have been labeled 'good' or 'bad' depending on the geographical location throughout the centuries, are not aspects of life we are bon with, and could be learned.
But you pose the question of whether that person has a conscience or not. I think the answer will depend on what is your definition of conscience. If by conscience you mean the instincts I mentioned first, then the answer would be yes, that person does not have one and there's something wrong with her/him.
If by conscience you mean the learned set of social rights and regulations, then the answer would be no, that person does have a conscience, but it's just different than yours. (US on Iraq anyone?)
If by conscience you mean something else, please explain.
WELL PUT BELLO! (It's about acknowledging that one is civilized I guess) What about kids of drug addicts, alcoholics, BAD parents? Would those kids grow up not knowing the difference between right and wrong? (Kids learn by example).....
yo no creo en padres malos pero si en padres descuidados, nuestros hijos no nacen fumando como todos sabemos, todo tiene que ver con quienes ellos se asocian, la mente humana entre la etapa de edad temprana (10 a los 30) es como una esponja, absorbiendo tanto y muchas veces esto lleva a que uno quiera experimentar cosas fuera de lo comun.
Los jovenes que viven en las drogas no llegaron a aprender sobre los efectos dañinos de esta sustancia por si mismo, es deber de los padres de saber en que y con quien estan sus hijos, si se descuidan y dejan que los amigos le muestren los caminos de la vida que normal mente son jovenes de la misma edad o cerca y con las mismas o peores creencias.
Los padres hoy en dia buen algunos, no le dan el tiempo o la importancia que se requiere para aconsejar e informar a sus hijos sobre lo que es bueno y lo que es malo en nuestra civilización o sociedad.
-- Edited by Alex Bello at 09:42, 2005-11-10
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AB
.::El Amor No Es Para Todos::. : El Amor Comienza Con Una Mirada, Crece Con Un Beso Y Muere Con Una Lagrima.
WELL PUT BELLO! (It's about acknowledging that one is civilized I guess)
What about kids of drug addicts, alcoholics, BAD parents? Would those kids grow up not knowing the difference between right and wrong? (Kids learn by example).....
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"To be a good Promoter you must have the heart of a Gambler and the mind of a Computer"
GOOD POINT BELLO.... I GUESS WE CAN REFER IT KIDS & ADULTS..... AND DO YOU THINK IT CAN REALLY HAPPEN? ...I MEAN PEOPLE GROWING UP NOT KNOWING OR ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT'S RIGHT OR WRONG?
Any civilize grown person knows the difference between good and bad, if they choose to be ignorant and pretend how they did not know what was right and wrong then that person becomes someone that’s not reliable, someone that has been living in his own lie, someone that has not mature, someone we can't learn anything positive from.
That's only my opinion mami.
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AB
.::El Amor No Es Para Todos::. : El Amor Comienza Con Una Mirada, Crece Con Un Beso Y Muere Con Una Lagrima.
"Most of us fall short much more by omission than by commission."
I don't know about that! 
Roses are red violets are korny, when I think of you Ohh baby I get horny...
